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PAI (Pakistan International Airlines) grounded over a 150 pilots due to forged licenses.

chrisseaton 6y ago
Is this a relevant problem when the contractor in this case is based on the Isle of Mann? Do you think the US has some kind of monopoly on competent pilots?
- tibbydudeza 6y ago
  Isle of Mann ... while they host a lovely motorbike race , it also has a reputation for being haven for some corporate dodginess. "According to union officials, CCL’s ownership structure is a company within a nest of shell companies" Yep ... it must be the scenery.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    This is all just insinuation. Company outside the US? Likely a dodgy company. Pilots potentially not American? Likely dodgy pilots. What do you think the US does so differently to everyone else that means outsourcing the work will be worse quality?
    - salawat 6y ago
      As much as I hate to draw attention to the man's article because on the one hand I really do think as a commentary on what the real cause of the 737 MAX incident was I think it's totally off the mark; but the article does highlight some cultural problems that exist in other parts of the world that could lead a reasonable reader to the conclusion that outsourcing is fraught given there's a chance of propagating bad habits abroad. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/magazine/boeing-737-max-crashes.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/magazine/boeing-737-max-c... I emphasize I only offer it as a source of examples of bad airmanship recognized abroad. I still patently reject his conclusions of ultimate fault for the 737 MAX crashes. Given the choice between having the internal Boeing trainers mentioned in the article, or potentially delegating it to a contracted pilot with said deficient airmanship, without the context I personally have into the industry from extensive hobbyist research, I couldn't fault someone for being wary. Especially given experiences with outsourcing in other verticals. It's just not a move that makes sense in the current business world either unless I'm woefully out of date. Training pilots on proper aircraft operating technique should be part of Boeing's core competency. Since you really can't separate a highly technical product like an airliner from the dissemination of the skills and knowledge to use it. To be frank I think Boeing management is trying to pilot the company into a smoking crater. If I had voting rights capable of moving anything, I'd be looking at votes of no confidence across the management echelon.
    - throwaway2048 6y ago
      If you want rock solid proof that the company they are outsourcing to sucks and quality is going to drop, you aren't going to find it because that's the entire point of this move. But ask yourself how many times quality has gone up after outsourcing critical operations to a group of shell companies based in a low regulation polity. Also ask yourself why a safety and reputation critical company seems to have a corporate structure indistinguishable from one used to dodge legal liability in tax evasion cases. How many leading aerospace companies do you think are based out of the Isle of Man? It does not even have a major airport.
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        > How many leading aerospace companies do you think are based out of the Isle of Man? It does not even have a major airport. I don't think they're doing the work on the Isle of Mann - that's just where the company happens to be registered.
- buran77 6y ago
  How's it relevant that the company is a "contract house incorporated in the Isle of Mann" when its "ownership structure is a company within a nest of shell companies"? You think that island of 50km on the long side hosts this world class pilot training center? When handing over the responsibility of training pilots to some entity inside another entity, like layers of an onion, it means you outsourced it into a black hole of regulation and competence. That structure is made to specifically obscure what these "cost saving" measures actually imply. When we're talking about this kind of critical activities you want them happening somewhere where you can actually hold people accountable. Somewhere with visibility, transparency, and working judicial and legislature.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
    > Somewhere with a working judicial and legislature. And where would that be? If the USA's (or wherever) justice system can be bamboozled by off shoring liability, that's indicative the system is broken and / or the necessary treaties are intentionally absent / weak.
  - valuearb 6y ago
    No one is getting trained on the Isle of Man, that’s just the company’s domicile. customers are still getting trained at the same locations under Boeing supervision.
sampo 6y ago
> PAI (Pakistan International Airlines) grounded over a 150 pilots due to forged licenses. Did the article say Boeing is outsourcing pilot training to Pakistan?
- tibbydudeza 6y ago
  No but it is rather clear that some overseas aviation regulatory authorities don't do proper certification of their pilots.
  - selimthegrim 6y ago
    Most of those 150 held previously valid licenses; they were just holding out on taking the new style certification exam (which they do deserve stick for) https://liveandletsfly.com/pia-fake-pilot/ https://liveandletsfly.com/pia-fake-pilot/

Is this a relevant problem when the contractor in this case is based on the Isle of Mann? Do you think the US has some kind of monopoly on competent pilots?

tibbydudeza 6y ago
Isle of Mann ... while they host a lovely motorbike race , it also has a reputation for being haven for some corporate dodginess. "According to union officials, CCL’s ownership structure is a company within a nest of shell companies" Yep ... it must be the scenery.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  This is all just insinuation. Company outside the US? Likely a dodgy company. Pilots potentially not American? Likely dodgy pilots. What do you think the US does so differently to everyone else that means outsourcing the work will be worse quality?
  - salawat 6y ago
    As much as I hate to draw attention to the man's article because on the one hand I really do think as a commentary on what the real cause of the 737 MAX incident was I think it's totally off the mark; but the article does highlight some cultural problems that exist in other parts of the world that could lead a reasonable reader to the conclusion that outsourcing is fraught given there's a chance of propagating bad habits abroad. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/magazine/boeing-737-max-crashes.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/magazine/boeing-737-max-c... I emphasize I only offer it as a source of examples of bad airmanship recognized abroad. I still patently reject his conclusions of ultimate fault for the 737 MAX crashes. Given the choice between having the internal Boeing trainers mentioned in the article, or potentially delegating it to a contracted pilot with said deficient airmanship, without the context I personally have into the industry from extensive hobbyist research, I couldn't fault someone for being wary. Especially given experiences with outsourcing in other verticals. It's just not a move that makes sense in the current business world either unless I'm woefully out of date. Training pilots on proper aircraft operating technique should be part of Boeing's core competency. Since you really can't separate a highly technical product like an airliner from the dissemination of the skills and knowledge to use it. To be frank I think Boeing management is trying to pilot the company into a smoking crater. If I had voting rights capable of moving anything, I'd be looking at votes of no confidence across the management echelon.
  - throwaway2048 6y ago
    If you want rock solid proof that the company they are outsourcing to sucks and quality is going to drop, you aren't going to find it because that's the entire point of this move. But ask yourself how many times quality has gone up after outsourcing critical operations to a group of shell companies based in a low regulation polity. Also ask yourself why a safety and reputation critical company seems to have a corporate structure indistinguishable from one used to dodge legal liability in tax evasion cases. How many leading aerospace companies do you think are based out of the Isle of Man? It does not even have a major airport.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      > How many leading aerospace companies do you think are based out of the Isle of Man? It does not even have a major airport. I don't think they're doing the work on the Isle of Mann - that's just where the company happens to be registered.
buran77 6y ago
How's it relevant that the company is a "contract house incorporated in the Isle of Mann" when its "ownership structure is a company within a nest of shell companies"? You think that island of 50km on the long side hosts this world class pilot training center? When handing over the responsibility of training pilots to some entity inside another entity, like layers of an onion, it means you outsourced it into a black hole of regulation and competence. That structure is made to specifically obscure what these "cost saving" measures actually imply. When we're talking about this kind of critical activities you want them happening somewhere where you can actually hold people accountable. Somewhere with visibility, transparency, and working judicial and legislature.
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
  > Somewhere with a working judicial and legislature. And where would that be? If the USA's (or wherever) justice system can be bamboozled by off shoring liability, that's indicative the system is broken and / or the necessary treaties are intentionally absent / weak.
- valuearb 6y ago
  No one is getting trained on the Isle of Man, that’s just the company’s domicile. customers are still getting trained at the same locations under Boeing supervision.

sampo 6y ago

> PAI (Pakistan International Airlines) grounded over a 150 pilots due to forged licenses. Did the article say Boeing is outsourcing pilot training to Pakistan?

tibbydudeza 6y ago
No but it is rather clear that some overseas aviation regulatory authorities don't do proper certification of their pilots.
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  Most of those 150 held previously valid licenses; they were just holding out on taking the new style certification exam (which they do deserve stick for) https://liveandletsfly.com/pia-fake-pilot/ https://liveandletsfly.com/pia-fake-pilot/