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Both communism and capitalism do a good job at draining resources from the masses and giving them to a relatively small number of elite. The main difference is

Both communism and capitalism do a good job at draining resources from the masses and giving them to a relatively small number of elite. The main difference is that capitalism is better at hiding its shortcomings. Also because capitalism has a much broader global reach, it can hide poverty away in other countries.

inglor_cz 6y ago
I grew up in Czechoslovak Socialist Republic. The fundamental problem was unproductivity, which resulted in shortages of consumer goods and queuing for things such as sports shoes. The system boasted enormous production of coal and steel, but was much worse in producing "less interesting" items such as "glue that worked", "washing machine that would not vibrate like hell" or even enough toilet paper. At one point, we had a shortage of sanitary towels. Dissatisfaction with those elementary things contributed to the Velvet Revolution much more than lack of political freedoms. Plenty of people can live with their mouths shut, but they start getting really resentful if their new shoes leak.
- jondubois 6y ago
  My wife grew up around Moscow during the last phase of the USSR and she said that although there wasn't that much stuff, there was enough for everyone. People complemented any minor shortcomings by growing stuff in their gardens. I have no doubt that countries in the periphery of major communist states had it worse... Just like countries in the periphery of capitalist states have it worse today. If you ask members of the communist elite how communism was, they would probably tell you it was amazing. If you ask the lowest class of capitalists, they will tell you that capitalism is horrible - These days even many members of the middle class will tell you that capitalism is horrible; unfortunately the US capitalist system can't drain China so much anymore (now that China has become an economic superpower) so now it has to drain its own citizens locally. Why do you think democrats are so keen on increasing immigration? You think they actually want more Elon Musks and Sudar Pichais to compete with them? They want more wage slaves to drain from! Elon and Sundar are immigrant bait! Americans are going to find out for the first time what capitalism is really about.
  - tasuki 6y ago
    > I have no doubt that countries in the periphery of major communist states had it worse... Just like countries in the periphery of capitalist states have it worse today. When the Russians came to "liberate" certain Eastern European countries, they said: "We have it better than the oppressed people of the USA, and your country is even richer than Russia, so give me that watch!". Fwiw, I think they truly believed they were doing better than the US.
    - jondubois 6y ago
      My point is that both communism and capitalism have problems. Both systems have shown themselves to be corruptible. The 'ideal form' of either system can never be achieved because of corruption.
      - matthewfelgate 6y ago
        Rubbish.
        Dahoon 6y ago
        Look at the most pure capitalist systems in the world and you will see more corruption and 1%'ers than in the way less "pure". Like Scandinavia vs the US. It isn't rubbish at all.
        read_if_gay_ 6y ago
        Tautology, if you ask me - it's a meaningless statement that misses the point because corruptible is not binary, communism has a much worse track record re corruption than most capitalist countries. Sure, just like anything ever involving human elements, both are corruptible, but what's important is how bad does it get?
      - kubanczyk 6y ago
        People voted with their feet, statistically speaking, and a theory that doesn't explain it isn't usable. If there is a lesson here for followers of Marx, the ability to make jeans or coca-cola (i.e. whatever fad the lowest-denominator consumers want this month) is a very important characteristic of a system.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Děkuji. You've given me more context for the sport shoe factory scene in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StjIv33zJ9c&t=1833 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StjIv33zJ9c&t=1833 (wait until 30:51 for shoes being glued. Anyone know what the machine at 31:13 is?) My head-canon for ex-ussr 90's includes "jawa" cycles, "abibas" shoes, and "USA california" caps: what was it like for ex-warsaw pact? Q. Why were Adam and Eve the first communists?
  - lioeters 6y ago
    A. They have no clothes, no shelter, only an apple to eat, and are being told this is paradise.
jopsen 6y ago
The implementations of communism we've seen have always been authoritarian. On the contrary, capitalist system tend to have freedoms (like speech). These freedoms makes a difference wrt. corruption. I think the argument is that systems with personal freedoms, like free speech, are better at correcting their shortcomings. I don't know if you can make a communist system with personal freedoms. Maybe.. but classically we've associated communism with planned economies. In my mind, planned economy sounds ideal, until you realize that it's the same as waterfall software development :D

inglor_cz 6y ago

I grew up in Czechoslovak Socialist Republic. The fundamental problem was unproductivity, which resulted in shortages of consumer goods and queuing for things such as sports shoes. The system boasted enormous production of coal and steel, but was much worse in producing "less interesting" items such as "glue that worked", "washing machine that would not vibrate like hell" or even enough toilet paper. At one point, we had a shortage of sanitary towels. Dissatisfaction with those elementary things contributed to the Velvet Revolution much more than lack of political freedoms. Plenty of people can live with their mouths shut, but they start getting really resentful if their new shoes leak.

jondubois 6y ago
My wife grew up around Moscow during the last phase of the USSR and she said that although there wasn't that much stuff, there was enough for everyone. People complemented any minor shortcomings by growing stuff in their gardens. I have no doubt that countries in the periphery of major communist states had it worse... Just like countries in the periphery of capitalist states have it worse today. If you ask members of the communist elite how communism was, they would probably tell you it was amazing. If you ask the lowest class of capitalists, they will tell you that capitalism is horrible - These days even many members of the middle class will tell you that capitalism is horrible; unfortunately the US capitalist system can't drain China so much anymore (now that China has become an economic superpower) so now it has to drain its own citizens locally. Why do you think democrats are so keen on increasing immigration? You think they actually want more Elon Musks and Sudar Pichais to compete with them? They want more wage slaves to drain from! Elon and Sundar are immigrant bait! Americans are going to find out for the first time what capitalism is really about.
- tasuki 6y ago
  > I have no doubt that countries in the periphery of major communist states had it worse... Just like countries in the periphery of capitalist states have it worse today. When the Russians came to "liberate" certain Eastern European countries, they said: "We have it better than the oppressed people of the USA, and your country is even richer than Russia, so give me that watch!". Fwiw, I think they truly believed they were doing better than the US.
  - jondubois 6y ago
    My point is that both communism and capitalism have problems. Both systems have shown themselves to be corruptible. The 'ideal form' of either system can never be achieved because of corruption.
    - matthewfelgate 6y ago
      Rubbish.
      - Dahoon 6y ago
        Look at the most pure capitalist systems in the world and you will see more corruption and 1%'ers than in the way less "pure". Like Scandinavia vs the US. It isn't rubbish at all.
      - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
        Tautology, if you ask me - it's a meaningless statement that misses the point because corruptible is not binary, communism has a much worse track record re corruption than most capitalist countries. Sure, just like anything ever involving human elements, both are corruptible, but what's important is how bad does it get?
    - kubanczyk 6y ago
      People voted with their feet, statistically speaking, and a theory that doesn't explain it isn't usable. If there is a lesson here for followers of Marx, the ability to make jeans or coca-cola (i.e. whatever fad the lowest-denominator consumers want this month) is a very important characteristic of a system.
082349872349872 6y ago
Děkuji. You've given me more context for the sport shoe factory scene in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StjIv33zJ9c&t=1833 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StjIv33zJ9c&t=1833 (wait until 30:51 for shoes being glued. Anyone know what the machine at 31:13 is?) My head-canon for ex-ussr 90's includes "jawa" cycles, "abibas" shoes, and "USA california" caps: what was it like for ex-warsaw pact? Q. Why were Adam and Eve the first communists?
- lioeters 6y ago
  A. They have no clothes, no shelter, only an apple to eat, and are being told this is paradise.

jopsen 6y ago

The implementations of communism we've seen have always been authoritarian. On the contrary, capitalist system tend to have freedoms (like speech). These freedoms makes a difference wrt. corruption. I think the argument is that systems with personal freedoms, like free speech, are better at correcting their shortcomings. I don't know if you can make a communist system with personal freedoms. Maybe.. but classically we've associated communism with planned economies. In my mind, planned economy sounds ideal, until you realize that it's the same as waterfall software development :D