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> I've never seen anyone who did the 2 minutes or two hours of work, went into a configuration, and changed these keys. I believe it's true: I don't think anyb
by acqq 6y ago
> I've never seen anyone who did the 2 minutes or two hours of work, went into a configuration, and changed these keys.
I believe it's true: I don't think anybody could even dare trying to change the key combinations if all the help pages can help you only with the description "META v" means "scrolling down in x jumps" or whatever.
In that case one spends time figuring out that these weird pages write each time "META" instead of writing... I don't know what... and then one just "translates" in head each time, cursing the "help" for not being direct. But changing the combinations to make even such "help" even more unusable? No way.
The complete mindset would have to be different across all tutorial and references to avoid "hardcoding" the key combinations even there -- the "proper" help would reflect the environment as chosen.
The beginner's expectation is that all trivial interactions could be done the way he's already used to perform them, and the "power" of the editor is not in pressing combination a or combination b, but in the functionality which is not present in other editors.
For the context: One of my oldest muscle memories are key combinations of Wordstar, a character-based text processor. The the editors on DOS and later Window which targeted programmers had for years default key combinations which imitated Wordstar, or allowed to select them once for all. But most people from that times unlearned these combinations once they started using Windows GUI, expecting that all GUI interactions use the GUI common key combinations, like holding shift and moving cursor using the arrow keys to mark the selection. Some convention came from the traditional Mac OS, initially Windows started with some other combinations than Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V, but I've never used these older Windows-unique (Shift-Insert or something). Of course on Linux GUIs it can still be a mess:
https://askubuntu.com/questions/26655/how-do-you-know-when-to-use-shiftinsert-vs-ctrl-v-vs-right-click-paste-to-paste https://askubuntu.com/questions/26655/how-do-you-know-when-t...
where sometimes one work and another not when clipboards aren't "shared" with installing some additional program that does that. So let's not go there. Considering the more "stable" GUI platforms (which sometimes also, unfortunately, aren't: some special "clipboard managers" are introduced there too in different occasions) the editors should "fit" to them as much as possible.
Is there is any tutorial "start using Emacs based on what you already know when using Notepad, without having to unlearn the basic operations with the keyboard"?
At the end a "normal" user just wants to do his job. If some tool allow doing what other tools don't, that's the reason for the tool.
Editors, once they become "the environment" for work are however also not normal tools. If the whole production in some company is based on some set of tools, one will accept them "just to get the job done" since anything else would mean even more unnecessary effort. That's how some people learn vi, for example, reading the HN posts. They join a team where it's "how the job is done".
- dragandj 6y agoHow many typical Notepad users use ANY shortcuts as the basic keyboard operations? I'd say a tiny minority. A typical Notepad user that I've seen uses the mouse exclusively, and clicks around menu. Yes, that includes copy, paste, and save, the three operations that you'd think everyone would perform on keyboard. But, say, 50% of the users don't even do that. For 40% these three shortcuts are pretty much everything they do on the keyboard. The rest is the mouse. Perhaps, 10% are the users who only ever open Notepad, and try to use muscle memory from a more powerful editor. Is that bad? No! From the perspective of unlearning, it's ideal! The problem that Emacs has is not so much that tyical Notepad users have to unlearn a ton of stuff, it's that they are not so eager to learn anything keyboard-oriented. No amount of crippling Emacs would help there. It can only spoil it for existing happy users. As people mentioned in this thread, there are things that are aging (large files, freezes, whatnot) but the keybindings is something Emacsers actually like.
- acqq 6y ago> No amount of crippling Emacs would help there. It can only spoil it for existing happy users. I am surely against "crippling." The initial topic of the discussion was how to make Emacs accessible to the new users. I don't suggest making fixed changes to anything, only allowing somebody to easily select different defaults which correspond with the keyboards available today. Today's keyboard has no meta key. Old keyboards didn't have a lot of keys that today's exist and have expected behavior in GUI -- potential Emacs user should have a possibility to turn on "consistent" behavior for everything that can be consistent, and the help should be easy to read without having to divine what META key in the "easy" case could even mean. Of course the old users should be able to use old behavior.
- dragandj 6y agoBut that is certainly not only possible, but available today in Emacs. It's here. Use it and evangelize it if you like.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]