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> it teaches me is some odd-for-me commands to navigate that as a user are all new and unlike every editor I've used. That is the point. If it worked the same

> it teaches me is some odd-for-me commands to navigate that as a user are all new and unlike every editor I've used. That is the point. If it worked the same as every editor you've used, why switch? The point why Emacs is better is because it's different. These things need to be learned. Otherwise, Emacs can't help you. It would be like people complaining that playing a guitar is different than pushing the play button on every music player they've ever tried. Well, yes, that is the point.

amadeuspagel 6y ago
Really? The point why Emacs is better is that it has different keyboard shortcuts?
- acqq 6y ago
  That is what I never understood -- I've implemented exactly this "which editor emulation do you want to use" and "edit your own bindings" for one Windows product containing editor in early nineties. It wasn't hard. The default was, of course, the "least surprising" for the platform, but it also allowed other popular editors then. If there's anything that can reduce friction to the new user, it's that: a beginner can use the actions he already knows how to do. Let him just the ability to access those that are unique -- for these he anyway doesn't have any reflexes. My biggest eyeroll whenever I looked at Emacs "help" (or any other, Emacs is not unique in that approach) was "and then you use Meta key." Well I don't think that anybody bought a physical keyboard with a key on which it was written "Meta" for a least 30 years. How about recognizing that for the beginners? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_key https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_key "But, meta is not always the same key" I hear every time -- fine, but that should also be the part of "advanced stuff." Just let people know that they initially have Alt, Ctrl and Escape where on the keycaps Alt, Ctrl and Escape are written.
  - dragandj 6y ago
    In Emacs, you can configure literally anything, including the keybindings. Some people use Emacs with Vim keybindings (Evil, Spacemacs, Doom). Now, for me, typical Emacs keybindings, of which the majority is defined in 3rd party packages are very logical, while Vim's are not. But the users who prefer the Vim way did they work and configured Emacs however they liked. OTOH, of the million people who complain and ask for Ctrl+C for copy and Ctrl+V for paste and whatnot, I've never seen anyone who did the 2 minutes or two hours of work, went into a configuration, and changed these keys. Why's that so, if that's such a great idea?
    - tsuujin 6y ago
      Probably because having the default be something other than what a user is used to is not going to compel them towards doing the research to fix it. In order to get cua-mode working in emacs, you first have to know that it exists. I didn't know it existed for like two years of daily emacs usage, I just can't find it in myself to expect someone to know about it after 10 minutes. By the time you know it exists, you've already accepted the keybindings and you've already put in the time to build some muscle memory, and it doesn't seem as important anymore. The fact that some people get past it isn't really an indicator that it isn't a huge friction point.
      - dragandj 6y ago
        Perhaps, but out of the million and counting know-alls, who: 1) claim they know a thing or two about emacs 2) claim that the biggest problem emacs has is CUV 3) demand that change from the core Emacs team exactly zero people created a CUV-emacs configuration, and gifted it to the world. I think that's telling. Keep in mind that all three combinations are central to Emacs 1) C-c is used in million combinations 2) C-u too 3) C-v scrolls a page down.
      - rpdillon 6y ago
        This is _very_ surprising. CUA mode is called out as the fifth item in the options menu, and the menu description itself describes what it offers. "Use CUA Keys (Cut/Paste with C-x/C-c/C-v)" It doesn't require any knowledge of lisp at all (contrary to the assertion in the LWN article), and you don't have to know it exists, at least not any more than any other option in a menu requires that.
    - incompatible 6y ago
      Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V are only two bindings, it's hardly a big deal. But I've used Emacs for decades, and I expect a lot of control-key bindings, to the point that remapping the CapsLock key as an extra control is a vital part of making a computer usable. Do other editors have the CapsLock binding problem, or do they generally rely on something other than control keys?
    - 6y ago
  - abecode 6y ago
    For me the killer feature of using emacs on a Mac is having a dedicated command c/v/x/z for copy/paste/cut/undo that's separate from ctrl c/v/x/z in emacs (and readline shell bindings in general).
- bitmunk 6y ago
  Nope, it's the ecosystem around them.
schwartzworld 6y ago
Emacs has a lot of selling points, but the keybindings aren't one of them. I spent weeks trying to switch, but ultimately I found the experience frustrating. UIs follow the same patterns for a reason, it makes it easier for users to adopt the tech. The biggest draw for me was org-mode with org-babel. I've never seen anything else like it
- quadrifoliate 6y ago
  > Emacs has a lot of selling points, but the keybindings aren't one of them. I find this difficult to understand for people who use the terminal. The keybindings are the exact same for most terminals by default, since they use readline. Want to go to the end of your command? `Ctrl-E`. Want to go to the beginning? `Ctrl-A`. Want to search backwards through history? `Ctrl-R` (same thing you would do while searching backwards through an Emacs buffer). All of these also happen to work everywhere in MacOS. Put your cursor on the URL and press Ctrl-A and Ctrl-E.
  - MinusGix 6y ago
    Personally, out of those I've only used Ctrl-R in the terminal. I just use the Home/End keys to navigate to the start/end of lines. I was actually surprised to read that Ctrl-E and Ctrl-A would do that. I usually expect Ctrl-A to select all, and don't really expect anything from Ctrl-E. (Though, I'd be surprised if home/end didn't work in Emacs, I'm just saying I've never used those readline keybinds).
    - morelisp 6y ago
      Home/End should go to the start/end of the file, not the line. Oh you’re a Windows or Linux user? Too bad, now you need to get used to modern key bindings like OS X has.
      - higerordermap 6y ago
        It is not bad. Ctrl+Home, Ctrl+End. Get out of the apple cult.

amadeuspagel 6y ago

Really? The point why Emacs is better is that it has different keyboard shortcuts?

acqq 6y ago
That is what I never understood -- I've implemented exactly this "which editor emulation do you want to use" and "edit your own bindings" for one Windows product containing editor in early nineties. It wasn't hard. The default was, of course, the "least surprising" for the platform, but it also allowed other popular editors then. If there's anything that can reduce friction to the new user, it's that: a beginner can use the actions he already knows how to do. Let him just the ability to access those that are unique -- for these he anyway doesn't have any reflexes. My biggest eyeroll whenever I looked at Emacs "help" (or any other, Emacs is not unique in that approach) was "and then you use Meta key." Well I don't think that anybody bought a physical keyboard with a key on which it was written "Meta" for a least 30 years. How about recognizing that for the beginners? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_key https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_key "But, meta is not always the same key" I hear every time -- fine, but that should also be the part of "advanced stuff." Just let people know that they initially have Alt, Ctrl and Escape where on the keycaps Alt, Ctrl and Escape are written.
- dragandj 6y ago
  In Emacs, you can configure literally anything, including the keybindings. Some people use Emacs with Vim keybindings (Evil, Spacemacs, Doom). Now, for me, typical Emacs keybindings, of which the majority is defined in 3rd party packages are very logical, while Vim's are not. But the users who prefer the Vim way did they work and configured Emacs however they liked. OTOH, of the million people who complain and ask for Ctrl+C for copy and Ctrl+V for paste and whatnot, I've never seen anyone who did the 2 minutes or two hours of work, went into a configuration, and changed these keys. Why's that so, if that's such a great idea?
  - tsuujin 6y ago
    Probably because having the default be something other than what a user is used to is not going to compel them towards doing the research to fix it. In order to get cua-mode working in emacs, you first have to know that it exists. I didn't know it existed for like two years of daily emacs usage, I just can't find it in myself to expect someone to know about it after 10 minutes. By the time you know it exists, you've already accepted the keybindings and you've already put in the time to build some muscle memory, and it doesn't seem as important anymore. The fact that some people get past it isn't really an indicator that it isn't a huge friction point.
    - dragandj 6y ago
      Perhaps, but out of the million and counting know-alls, who: 1) claim they know a thing or two about emacs 2) claim that the biggest problem emacs has is CUV 3) demand that change from the core Emacs team exactly zero people created a CUV-emacs configuration, and gifted it to the world. I think that's telling. Keep in mind that all three combinations are central to Emacs 1) C-c is used in million combinations 2) C-u too 3) C-v scrolls a page down.
    - rpdillon 6y ago
      This is _very_ surprising. CUA mode is called out as the fifth item in the options menu, and the menu description itself describes what it offers. "Use CUA Keys (Cut/Paste with C-x/C-c/C-v)" It doesn't require any knowledge of lisp at all (contrary to the assertion in the LWN article), and you don't have to know it exists, at least not any more than any other option in a menu requires that.
  - incompatible 6y ago
    Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V are only two bindings, it's hardly a big deal. But I've used Emacs for decades, and I expect a lot of control-key bindings, to the point that remapping the CapsLock key as an extra control is a vital part of making a computer usable. Do other editors have the CapsLock binding problem, or do they generally rely on something other than control keys?
  - 6y ago
- abecode 6y ago
  For me the killer feature of using emacs on a Mac is having a dedicated command c/v/x/z for copy/paste/cut/undo that's separate from ctrl c/v/x/z in emacs (and readline shell bindings in general).
bitmunk 6y ago
Nope, it's the ecosystem around them.

schwartzworld 6y ago

Emacs has a lot of selling points, but the keybindings aren't one of them. I spent weeks trying to switch, but ultimately I found the experience frustrating. UIs follow the same patterns for a reason, it makes it easier for users to adopt the tech. The biggest draw for me was org-mode with org-babel. I've never seen anything else like it

quadrifoliate 6y ago
> Emacs has a lot of selling points, but the keybindings aren't one of them. I find this difficult to understand for people who use the terminal. The keybindings are the exact same for most terminals by default, since they use readline. Want to go to the end of your command? `Ctrl-E`. Want to go to the beginning? `Ctrl-A`. Want to search backwards through history? `Ctrl-R` (same thing you would do while searching backwards through an Emacs buffer). All of these also happen to work everywhere in MacOS. Put your cursor on the URL and press Ctrl-A and Ctrl-E.
- MinusGix 6y ago
  Personally, out of those I've only used Ctrl-R in the terminal. I just use the Home/End keys to navigate to the start/end of lines. I was actually surprised to read that Ctrl-E and Ctrl-A would do that. I usually expect Ctrl-A to select all, and don't really expect anything from Ctrl-E. (Though, I'd be surprised if home/end didn't work in Emacs, I'm just saying I've never used those readline keybinds).
  - morelisp 6y ago
    Home/End should go to the start/end of the file, not the line. Oh you’re a Windows or Linux user? Too bad, now you need to get used to modern key bindings like OS X has.
    - higerordermap 6y ago
      It is not bad. Ctrl+Home, Ctrl+End. Get out of the apple cult.