7 ms·

The article makes some interesting points, to me, though, I think the Emacs devs need to have a discussion with themselves if they even want to go here. Here's

The article makes some interesting points, to me, though, I think the Emacs devs need to have a discussion with themselves if they even want to go here. Here's what I see as an outsider if I'm a Windows users and want to give this great emacs editor I've heard so much about a try: First off, I search for emacs, I land on a page with a Windows link. I click that link, I get a rant about how Windows is evil. Ok, fine, sure, gnu and all of that. Then I follow a link to download it from a mirror. That link doesn't actually lead to a download, it leads to a directory on the mirror that I need to drill down into another directory. The README in this directory contradicts the emacs website on which version I download. I go to download the installer, if I try to run it, I get a big scary warning (I can't blame GNU on this too much, but still, more friction). Finally, I have emacs on my machine. (If I follow the directions on the webpage, I download a zip file, and I'm left wondering why I should run "runemacs.exe" and not run "emacs.exe". I know why, but dang it, this is just silly) I run it. I'm presented with some combination of a text UI and iconography from the 90's. I get emacs doesn't change much, but this adds to the sour taste already building. And then there's the intro, which is what this article is touching on. The first thing it teaches me is some odd-for-me commands to navigate that as a user are all new and unlike every editor I've used. Now I decide to play around and open a file. Do I want to "visit new file" or "open file"? I pick one, and it helpfully defaults to showing me files in the emacs installation folder. Great. And by this point the thing has beeped at me a dozen or so times for reasons known only to emacs, and I'm tired of it all. Emacs is clearly designed for people that use emacs, and that's fine, but if you want to get more mindshare, you'll need to, first thing, ask me if I want to set it up to act like VS Code or IntelliJ or Emacs.

dragandj 6y ago
> it teaches me is some odd-for-me commands to navigate that as a user are all new and unlike every editor I've used. That is the point. If it worked the same as every editor you've used, why switch? The point why Emacs is better is because it's different. These things need to be learned. Otherwise, Emacs can't help you. It would be like people complaining that playing a guitar is different than pushing the play button on every music player they've ever tried. Well, yes, that is the point.
- amadeuspagel 6y ago
  Really? The point why Emacs is better is that it has different keyboard shortcuts?
  - acqq 6y ago
    That is what I never understood -- I've implemented exactly this "which editor emulation do you want to use" and "edit your own bindings" for one Windows product containing editor in early nineties. It wasn't hard. The default was, of course, the "least surprising" for the platform, but it also allowed other popular editors then. If there's anything that can reduce friction to the new user, it's that: a beginner can use the actions he already knows how to do. Let him just the ability to access those that are unique -- for these he anyway doesn't have any reflexes. My biggest eyeroll whenever I looked at Emacs "help" (or any other, Emacs is not unique in that approach) was "and then you use Meta key." Well I don't think that anybody bought a physical keyboard with a key on which it was written "Meta" for a least 30 years. How about recognizing that for the beginners? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_key https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_key "But, meta is not always the same key" I hear every time -- fine, but that should also be the part of "advanced stuff." Just let people know that they initially have Alt, Ctrl and Escape where on the keycaps Alt, Ctrl and Escape are written.
    - dragandj 6y ago
      In Emacs, you can configure literally anything, including the keybindings. Some people use Emacs with Vim keybindings (Evil, Spacemacs, Doom). Now, for me, typical Emacs keybindings, of which the majority is defined in 3rd party packages are very logical, while Vim's are not. But the users who prefer the Vim way did they work and configured Emacs however they liked. OTOH, of the million people who complain and ask for Ctrl+C for copy and Ctrl+V for paste and whatnot, I've never seen anyone who did the 2 minutes or two hours of work, went into a configuration, and changed these keys. Why's that so, if that's such a great idea?
      - tsuujin 6y ago
alan_n 6y ago
The saddest thing is its easier to just install it from WSL and use something an X server and it runs faster.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
TheGrassyKnoll 6y ago
But Windows IS evil...
- phist_mcgee 6y ago
  Yeah cool. I guess all the people who write software for Windows based ecosystems are evil too right? Just make them use linux and the world will be candy and smiles.
  - ginko 6y ago
    I would say so, yes.
    - phist_mcgee 6y ago
      You are certainly entitled to your distorted and reductionist opinion.
      - dang 6y ago
        Please don't post flamebait and/or unsubstantive comments to HN. We're trying for something different here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - dang 6y ago
      Please don't post flamebait and/or unsubstantive comments to HN. We're trying for something different here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't post flamebait and/or unsubstantive comments to HN. We're trying for something different here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
pjfin123 6y ago
I recently setup Emacs on a Windows work computer and the install process is definitely needlessly difficult. Other "popular" editors have a big download link on the homepage while Emacs you have to scroll through the lecture on non-free systems, and then link to an ftp server where you have to try to figure out which file you need to download. From the Emacs install instructions: "Nonfree systems The reason for GNU Emacs's existence is to provide a powerful editor for the GNU operating system. Versions of GNU, such as GNU/Linux, are the primary platforms for Emacs development. However, GNU Emacs includes support for some other systems that volunteers choose to support. The purpose of the GNU system is to give users the freedom that proprietary software takes away from its users. Proprietary operating systems (like other proprietary programs) are an injustice, and we aim for a world in which they do not exist. To improve the use of proprietary systems is a misguided goal. Our aim, rather, is to eliminate them. We include support for some proprietary systems in GNU Emacs in the hope that running Emacs on them will give users a taste of freedom and thus lead them to free themselves. Windows GNU Emacs for Windows can be downloaded from a nearby GNU mirror; or the main GNU FTP server. Unzip the zip file preserving the directory structure, and run bin\runemacs.exe. Alternatively, create a desktop shortcut to bin\runemacs.exe, and start Emacs by double-clicking on that shortcut's icon."

dragandj 6y ago

> it teaches me is some odd-for-me commands to navigate that as a user are all new and unlike every editor I've used. That is the point. If it worked the same as every editor you've used, why switch? The point why Emacs is better is because it's different. These things need to be learned. Otherwise, Emacs can't help you. It would be like people complaining that playing a guitar is different than pushing the play button on every music player they've ever tried. Well, yes, that is the point.

amadeuspagel 6y ago
Really? The point why Emacs is better is that it has different keyboard shortcuts?
- acqq 6y ago
  That is what I never understood -- I've implemented exactly this "which editor emulation do you want to use" and "edit your own bindings" for one Windows product containing editor in early nineties. It wasn't hard. The default was, of course, the "least surprising" for the platform, but it also allowed other popular editors then. If there's anything that can reduce friction to the new user, it's that: a beginner can use the actions he already knows how to do. Let him just the ability to access those that are unique -- for these he anyway doesn't have any reflexes. My biggest eyeroll whenever I looked at Emacs "help" (or any other, Emacs is not unique in that approach) was "and then you use Meta key." Well I don't think that anybody bought a physical keyboard with a key on which it was written "Meta" for a least 30 years. How about recognizing that for the beginners? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_key https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_key "But, meta is not always the same key" I hear every time -- fine, but that should also be the part of "advanced stuff." Just let people know that they initially have Alt, Ctrl and Escape where on the keycaps Alt, Ctrl and Escape are written.
  - dragandj 6y ago
    In Emacs, you can configure literally anything, including the keybindings. Some people use Emacs with Vim keybindings (Evil, Spacemacs, Doom). Now, for me, typical Emacs keybindings, of which the majority is defined in 3rd party packages are very logical, while Vim's are not. But the users who prefer the Vim way did they work and configured Emacs however they liked. OTOH, of the million people who complain and ask for Ctrl+C for copy and Ctrl+V for paste and whatnot, I've never seen anyone who did the 2 minutes or two hours of work, went into a configuration, and changed these keys. Why's that so, if that's such a great idea?
    - tsuujin 6y ago

alan_n 6y ago

The saddest thing is its easier to just install it from WSL and use something an X server and it runs faster.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

TheGrassyKnoll 6y ago

But Windows IS evil...

phist_mcgee 6y ago
Yeah cool. I guess all the people who write software for Windows based ecosystems are evil too right? Just make them use linux and the world will be candy and smiles.
- ginko 6y ago
  I would say so, yes.
  - phist_mcgee 6y ago
    You are certainly entitled to your distorted and reductionist opinion.
    - dang 6y ago
      Please don't post flamebait and/or unsubstantive comments to HN. We're trying for something different here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - dang 6y ago
    Please don't post flamebait and/or unsubstantive comments to HN. We're trying for something different here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dang 6y ago
Please don't post flamebait and/or unsubstantive comments to HN. We're trying for something different here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

pjfin123 6y ago

I recently setup Emacs on a Windows work computer and the install process is definitely needlessly difficult. Other "popular" editors have a big download link on the homepage while Emacs you have to scroll through the lecture on non-free systems, and then link to an ftp server where you have to try to figure out which file you need to download. From the Emacs install instructions: "Nonfree systems The reason for GNU Emacs's existence is to provide a powerful editor for the GNU operating system. Versions of GNU, such as GNU/Linux, are the primary platforms for Emacs development. However, GNU Emacs includes support for some other systems that volunteers choose to support. The purpose of the GNU system is to give users the freedom that proprietary software takes away from its users. Proprietary operating systems (like other proprietary programs) are an injustice, and we aim for a world in which they do not exist. To improve the use of proprietary systems is a misguided goal. Our aim, rather, is to eliminate them. We include support for some proprietary systems in GNU Emacs in the hope that running Emacs on them will give users a taste of freedom and thus lead them to free themselves. Windows GNU Emacs for Windows can be downloaded from a nearby GNU mirror; or the main GNU FTP server. Unzip the zip file preserving the directory structure, and run bin\runemacs.exe. Alternatively, create a desktop shortcut to bin\runemacs.exe, and start Emacs by double-clicking on that shortcut's icon."