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I've been an emacs user for more than 20 years. Is it just me, or is this article completely missing the point? I've switched to VS Code because I can install

by xrd 6y ago

I've been an emacs user for more than 20 years. Is it just me, or is this article completely missing the point? I've switched to VS Code because I can install extensions so easily. Getting a theme installed is not my concern at all. With emacs, I'm still never sure how to get elpa (or why not melpa) to work correctly. And, modern packages for react never seem to be available there anyway. I'm still astounded package management is so bad on emacs. For the record, emacs and tmux are still the first thing I install on any new server. I still use emacs on a daily basis. But, not on my desktop Linux machine anymore.

ssivark 6y ago
Have you tried the “straight” package manager? Quite nifty.
- tome 6y ago
  I agree. straight.el is the only thing that makes emacs package management usable for me.
wtetzner 6y ago
use-package has basically solved the package management problem for me in Emacs.
- BeetleB 6y ago
  use-package can make package management easier, but using it s not beginner friendly. As an advanced Emacs user, when I read its docs, there were too many subtleties that can trip up a beginner. Indeed, just yesterday I stopped using use-package for one of my packages as I couldn't figure out why it wasn't behaving properly - reverting to require solved it.
  - bananaface 6y ago
    The Emacs docs are absolutely horrendous, they read like they're written for the core dev team. Useless as an introduction, everyone ends up on Xah Lee's site. They could be completely fixed by just providing examples of all these esoteric elisp functions.
- jeromenerf 6y ago
  To add packages, but to remove them...
jakevoytko 6y ago
I've been gradually switching towards completely using IDEs for like 8 years now, and in the past 2 or 3 I've broken free completely. Some of my symptoms are the same as yours: Frustrating package management, obvious missing gaps in functionality. My conclusion is slightly different: I don't need a text editor anymore. I need an IDE and it's a bonus if it's a good text editor. Efficient text editing is nice. But I spend a lot of time jumping between files, looking up definitions, reading documentation, tracing through code, debugging, comparing tests and regular code, etc. Plus all of the features that you expect: (colorblind-friendly) syntax highlighting, syntax highlighting, linting, etc. This is where the package pain comes in. I don't want to figure out how to configure the cross product of "every single IDE feature that I need" and "every single language that I use." I gave up. It's too much. I want my environment to either do it by default, or install a single plugin per language and never think about it again. I'm not sure how Emacs can get "more modern," because being modern would likely start from the premise that you'd need to allow the core innovation of IDEs. They provide a pluggable framework to get uniform behavior across every language that you use. That ship sailed in Emacs - how do you move away from 40 years of "we ship a vanilla experience and you customize your environment completely to your own liking"?
- rightbyte 6y ago
  I really like using Emacs but as soon as I touch a big project I need a point and click friendly IDE with refactoring/smart search support to keep my head from spinning. It would be great with some vanilla autocomplete with a language server thing that "almost just works".
fmakunbound 6y ago
What’s extending VS Code like compared to Emacs?
- snazz 6y ago
  The amazing thing about Emacs is that you can run a snippet of elisp from anywhere at any time. I never found this to be a major advantage of Emacs for my own workflow, but if it matters to you, editors like VS Code won't cut it. The more structured approach to building extensions in VS Code prevents namespace issues and improves robustness at the cost of runtime flexibility. I occasionally use the Python console in Sublime Text to achieve the same thing as the Emacs scratch buffer, but Sublime also has more structured plugins than Emacs. I guess it's also technically possible to pop open the JavaScript console in VS Code, but I don't think that's recommended or very productive.
- jodrellblank 6y ago
  Like this: https://code.visualstudio.com/api/get-started/your-first-extension https://code.visualstudio.com/api/get-started/your-first-ext...
fallingfrog 6y ago
Yeah I have no idea why they still, after all this time, can’t get melpa to run out of the box.
rcdwealth 6y ago
In 20 years and you don't know, sounds unbelievable. I don't know what you mean, it is so easy and works: M-x list-packages Choose a package and install. It is all well integrated.
d0mine 6y ago
YMMV, out of hundreds emacs packages I use, I remember issues installing exactly one package. For comparison, I easily remember issues with more than deb package on Ubuntu and I consider apt-get ecosystem as pretty reliable.
- xrd 6y ago
  How and what do you use for package management on emacs?
  - d0mine 6y ago
    Mostly use-package for configuring and installing (as far as I know it uses builtin package-install) (use-package which-key :config (which-key-mode)) https://github.com/jwiegley/use-package#use-package-ensure-system-package https://github.com/jwiegley/use-package#use-package-ensure-s... Historically, el-get e.g.: (el-get-bundle ace-link) https://github.com/dimitri/el-get#el-get-elpa-and-packageel https://github.com/dimitri/el-get#el-get-elpa-and-packageel

by xrd 6y ago

ssivark 6y ago

Have you tried the “straight” package manager? Quite nifty.

tome 6y ago
I agree. straight.el is the only thing that makes emacs package management usable for me.

wtetzner 6y ago

use-package has basically solved the package management problem for me in Emacs.

BeetleB 6y ago
use-package can make package management easier, but using it s not beginner friendly. As an advanced Emacs user, when I read its docs, there were too many subtleties that can trip up a beginner. Indeed, just yesterday I stopped using use-package for one of my packages as I couldn't figure out why it wasn't behaving properly - reverting to require solved it.
- bananaface 6y ago
  The Emacs docs are absolutely horrendous, they read like they're written for the core dev team. Useless as an introduction, everyone ends up on Xah Lee's site. They could be completely fixed by just providing examples of all these esoteric elisp functions.
jeromenerf 6y ago
To add packages, but to remove them...

jakevoytko 6y ago

I've been gradually switching towards completely using IDEs for like 8 years now, and in the past 2 or 3 I've broken free completely. Some of my symptoms are the same as yours: Frustrating package management, obvious missing gaps in functionality. My conclusion is slightly different: I don't need a text editor anymore. I need an IDE and it's a bonus if it's a good text editor. Efficient text editing is nice. But I spend a lot of time jumping between files, looking up definitions, reading documentation, tracing through code, debugging, comparing tests and regular code, etc. Plus all of the features that you expect: (colorblind-friendly) syntax highlighting, syntax highlighting, linting, etc. This is where the package pain comes in. I don't want to figure out how to configure the cross product of "every single IDE feature that I need" and "every single language that I use." I gave up. It's too much. I want my environment to either do it by default, or install a single plugin per language and never think about it again. I'm not sure how Emacs can get "more modern," because being modern would likely start from the premise that you'd need to allow the core innovation of IDEs. They provide a pluggable framework to get uniform behavior across every language that you use. That ship sailed in Emacs - how do you move away from 40 years of "we ship a vanilla experience and you customize your environment completely to your own liking"?

rightbyte 6y ago
I really like using Emacs but as soon as I touch a big project I need a point and click friendly IDE with refactoring/smart search support to keep my head from spinning. It would be great with some vanilla autocomplete with a language server thing that "almost just works".

fmakunbound 6y ago

What’s extending VS Code like compared to Emacs?

snazz 6y ago
The amazing thing about Emacs is that you can run a snippet of elisp from anywhere at any time. I never found this to be a major advantage of Emacs for my own workflow, but if it matters to you, editors like VS Code won't cut it. The more structured approach to building extensions in VS Code prevents namespace issues and improves robustness at the cost of runtime flexibility. I occasionally use the Python console in Sublime Text to achieve the same thing as the Emacs scratch buffer, but Sublime also has more structured plugins than Emacs. I guess it's also technically possible to pop open the JavaScript console in VS Code, but I don't think that's recommended or very productive.
jodrellblank 6y ago
Like this: https://code.visualstudio.com/api/get-started/your-first-extension https://code.visualstudio.com/api/get-started/your-first-ext...

fallingfrog 6y ago

Yeah I have no idea why they still, after all this time, can’t get melpa to run out of the box.

rcdwealth 6y ago

In 20 years and you don't know, sounds unbelievable. I don't know what you mean, it is so easy and works: M-x list-packages Choose a package and install. It is all well integrated.

d0mine 6y ago

YMMV, out of hundreds emacs packages I use, I remember issues installing exactly one package. For comparison, I easily remember issues with more than deb package on Ubuntu and I consider apt-get ecosystem as pretty reliable.

xrd 6y ago
How and what do you use for package management on emacs?
- d0mine 6y ago
  Mostly use-package for configuring and installing (as far as I know it uses builtin package-install) (use-package which-key :config (which-key-mode)) https://github.com/jwiegley/use-package#use-package-ensure-system-package https://github.com/jwiegley/use-package#use-package-ensure-s... Historically, el-get e.g.: (el-get-bundle ace-link) https://github.com/dimitri/el-get#el-get-elpa-and-packageel https://github.com/dimitri/el-get#el-get-elpa-and-packageel