3 ms·

> Or will they have to concede like opera and edge did. I am sad to say this, but I think it's only a matter of time. At this point, the list of parties drivin

> Or will they have to concede like opera and edge did. I am sad to say this, but I think it's only a matter of time. At this point, the list of parties driving Web standards basically consists of a whole bunch of organizations that rely on Blink, plus Apple and Mozilla. WebKit can probably hang on for a good long while because ~15% of user-agents are required by fiat to be WebKit. Gecko? At 5% marketshare, I fear it's dropped below the point where web developers are well-incentivized worry too much about making sure their sites run well on it. Which means that it's going to get increasingly costly for individuals to continue using Firefox. And, at the same time, actually making sure your site runs well on it is getting increasingly difficult. The rise of client-side JavaScript frameworks like React means that cross-browser issues have moved beyond easy-to-perceive things like ActiveX controls not being supported, or CSS rendering badly. Now the big problem is differences between JavaScript engines leading to annoying performance problems. And, if a developer is planning on doing the sane thing and relying mostly on libraries for their heavy lifting, there's just not that much that any individual can do about it. My sense, at this point, is that, going forward, the Internet does still have room for free, open, community-driven standards that aren't tightly controlled by a small number of massive corporations. However, the Web (i.e., HTML, CSS and JavaScript) does not.

toyg 6y ago
This is catastrophism. If Mozilla can make a browser that developers enjoy using as daily driver, developers will make stuff for it. If Mozilla can build bridges with framework makers, frameworks will work just fine. They just need to regain some of the focus that was squandered on too many moonshots and hazardous choices (FFOS, Pocket, etc).
- mumblemumble 6y ago
  I think that that may no longer be enough. The elephant in the room is the Web taking over non-Web apps. If Electron is part of your deployment surface, you can't escape Chromium. If Cordova is part of your deployment surface, it's Chromium or WebKit. A nice UI on the dev tools is nice, but I imagine most people would take an acceptable UI over a nice one if the acceptable one is how you get a development environment that is more comparable to what life will be like in production. FFOS was a moonshot that burned a lot of resources, but I also suspect it's one of the few things that, had it been successful, could have guaranteed Firefox's long-term survival.
  - toyg 6y ago
    I’m old enough to remember a time when developers couldn’t “escape” Internet Explorer 5. It took years of guerrilla but slowly things changed (yeah yeah, MS dropped the ball, but even after they picked it up FF was doing just fine). Marketshare is just one element in a complex story, and Electron is just one platform - although I agree that producing an “Electron killer” should probably be very high on the list of priorities. (And I still think FFOS was a silly move, because Mozilla will never be able to match the industrial muscle that FAANG can field. Mozilla on mobile can only succeed either by pushing harder to the court of public opinion (i.e. lobbying antitrust authorities to force Apple and Google to open up), or by partnering with another giant who wants to compete and can do the heavy lifting (Amazon, or FB, since Microsoft seems to have joined the monoculture for good).)
    - notriddle 6y ago
      > I’m old enough to remember a time when developers couldn’t “escape” Internet Explorer 5. It took years of guerrilla but slowly things changed (yeah yeah, MS dropped the ball, but even after they picked it up FF was doing just fine). Google also advertised Firefox on their home page.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - Zenbit_UX 6y ago
    Electron is shit though, the only good Electron app that doesn't completely drain my battery and hoard my cpu is vscode, EVERYTHING else is a steaming pile of shit, looking at you slack. Flutter will be the interesting newcomer to the multi platform game, they've been working closely with the big OS teams to optimize performance on Mac, Linux and Windows and truly compete with native. So far I've only used it for mobile but the temptation is there and I'll eventually try it.
- lewisjoe 6y ago
  This is exactly what bothered me when I heard parts of Mozilla Devtools team were let go in the recent layoffs. It's as if they don't get the equation at all. Better devtools = More developers = More testing = Smoother website = More market share.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    I doubt they get it. Otherwise they would have seriously invested in firefox dev tools years ago, when allmost every web dev switched to chrome. Instead off Firefox with firebug before that.
Zenbit_UX 6y ago
As a vue developer I don't have issues with Firefox's javascript engine, maybe it's different for react? I develop on FF exclusively these days as I know that if it works here it'll likely be fine everywhere - except IE11 which is going the way of the dinosaur. Though as if to invalidate what I just said, today's actually the first day where I found a bug in Chrome that every other browser got right. Flex reverse row was right aligning my div and every other browser properly left aligned it... I was pretty shocked.

toyg 6y ago

This is catastrophism. If Mozilla can make a browser that developers enjoy using as daily driver, developers will make stuff for it. If Mozilla can build bridges with framework makers, frameworks will work just fine. They just need to regain some of the focus that was squandered on too many moonshots and hazardous choices (FFOS, Pocket, etc).

mumblemumble 6y ago
I think that that may no longer be enough. The elephant in the room is the Web taking over non-Web apps. If Electron is part of your deployment surface, you can't escape Chromium. If Cordova is part of your deployment surface, it's Chromium or WebKit. A nice UI on the dev tools is nice, but I imagine most people would take an acceptable UI over a nice one if the acceptable one is how you get a development environment that is more comparable to what life will be like in production. FFOS was a moonshot that burned a lot of resources, but I also suspect it's one of the few things that, had it been successful, could have guaranteed Firefox's long-term survival.
- toyg 6y ago
  I’m old enough to remember a time when developers couldn’t “escape” Internet Explorer 5. It took years of guerrilla but slowly things changed (yeah yeah, MS dropped the ball, but even after they picked it up FF was doing just fine). Marketshare is just one element in a complex story, and Electron is just one platform - although I agree that producing an “Electron killer” should probably be very high on the list of priorities. (And I still think FFOS was a silly move, because Mozilla will never be able to match the industrial muscle that FAANG can field. Mozilla on mobile can only succeed either by pushing harder to the court of public opinion (i.e. lobbying antitrust authorities to force Apple and Google to open up), or by partnering with another giant who wants to compete and can do the heavy lifting (Amazon, or FB, since Microsoft seems to have joined the monoculture for good).)
  - notriddle 6y ago
    > I’m old enough to remember a time when developers couldn’t “escape” Internet Explorer 5. It took years of guerrilla but slowly things changed (yeah yeah, MS dropped the ball, but even after they picked it up FF was doing just fine). Google also advertised Firefox on their home page.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Zenbit_UX 6y ago
  Electron is shit though, the only good Electron app that doesn't completely drain my battery and hoard my cpu is vscode, EVERYTHING else is a steaming pile of shit, looking at you slack. Flutter will be the interesting newcomer to the multi platform game, they've been working closely with the big OS teams to optimize performance on Mac, Linux and Windows and truly compete with native. So far I've only used it for mobile but the temptation is there and I'll eventually try it.
lewisjoe 6y ago
This is exactly what bothered me when I heard parts of Mozilla Devtools team were let go in the recent layoffs. It's as if they don't get the equation at all. Better devtools = More developers = More testing = Smoother website = More market share.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  I doubt they get it. Otherwise they would have seriously invested in firefox dev tools years ago, when allmost every web dev switched to chrome. Instead off Firefox with firebug before that.

Zenbit_UX 6y ago

As a vue developer I don't have issues with Firefox's javascript engine, maybe it's different for react? I develop on FF exclusively these days as I know that if it works here it'll likely be fine everywhere - except IE11 which is going the way of the dinosaur. Though as if to invalidate what I just said, today's actually the first day where I found a bug in Chrome that every other browser got right. Flex reverse row was right aligning my div and every other browser properly left aligned it... I was pretty shocked.