4 ms·

Y'all saying "This is largely a solved problem" are in denial. Also: You need to kill the standards committees that keep coming up with stuff like WSDL and SOA

by kabdib 16y ago

Y'all saying "This is largely a solved problem" are in denial. Also: You need to kill the standards committees that keep coming up with stuff like WSDL and SOAP. Pretty much anything based on XML and you should get out the pitchforks and torches. Stop hurting yourselves. I am speaking as an OS guy who also does embedded systems. We have our own pieces of hell to deal with (over-designed and under-implemented protocols in USB and networking, natch; also hardware engineers who like to take away components to save money). The last time I looked at web development it was a steaming heap of vile, corrupted technologies that barely talked to each other. Maybe alien unicorns have descended and made everything fluffy and nice since I looked last. There /is/ hope. I mean, you deprecated BLINK tags. Honestly, do the database people and the client people ever talk to each other? Do the people doing browsers ever talk to the people doing IDEs? Or is this like different tribes, and they are trying to screw each other over in some kind of zero-sum game? Y'all are fooling yourselves if you think there's not a problem. Look at the number of frameworks; these things wouldn't exist unless something needed fixing. Last time I was in the bookstore it seemed like there a dozen linear feet of dead trees describing frameworks. God knows how many there are online. I think you need an intervention.

dansingerman 16y ago
Web development has long since moved on past WSDL and SOAP; they've now been relegated to the domain of Enterprise software. As for the claim that the proliferation of frameworks indicates a problem, well I completely disagree. They are so many frameworks because progress is being made improving the technology all the time. This is a good thing; it is how progress is made. By your logic there is a problem with the automotive industry (people keep making new cars), the computer hardware industry (new chips), in fact pretty much every industry that exists today. It's human (hacker?) nature to think there must be a better way, and do something about it.
- absconditus 16y ago
  Enterprise software is where much of the industry is employed. SOAP is becoming more prevalent, not less.
  - dansingerman 16y ago
    This is a thread about web development though.
    - absconditus 16y ago
      Can enterprise software not be web-based?
      - dansingerman 16y ago
        Yes it can. In fact if the article was about how enterprise web development using SOAP and XML was broken I'd be fully supportive of it, given how web development has matured past that to leaner, more suitable technologies (REST/JSON) But that's really a different conversation.
        absconditus 16y ago
        You must be using "web development" in a way that I have never encountered before.
  - pavel_lishin 16y ago
    > Enterprise software is where much of the industry is employed. > SOAP is becoming more prevalent, not less. [ citation needed ]
    - absconditus 16y ago
      If you find the first statement controversial then I suggest stepping outside of the world of HN once in a while. As to the second claim, SOAP is very popular with Java and .Net developers, especially when they have taken up the latest fad, SOA. There are also entire industries, such as healthcare, that are heavily pushing SOAP-based standards for data exchange.
      - ebiester 16y ago
- AbyCodes 16y ago
  |"By your logic there is a problem with the automotive industry (people keep making new cars)" But you don't see infinite procedures to make the same car. Web frameworks aren't solving new problems. They are competing with other frameworks which does the exact same thing.
sleight42 16y ago
I empathize with this point (I even up voted) but I don't entirely agree. I want to say that we should have some grand unified abstraction for describing web applications but that doesn't represent reality outside of web development. We're still living in a world with multiple OSs (never mind the browser war). The technology world isn't isn't unified. if it truly were, would we be able to express solutions to arbitrary problems? Such a unified solution as you hope for would implicitly prevent the flexibility that allows for technological advancement. Ruby on Rails "golden path" approach is actually a good example of this. Development is easier following the path. Deviate and it gets tricky quickly. But at least it's possible to deviate. I believe the solution you posit would result in a black box approach to development with only one right way if even one at all. Deviation from the intended use of such a tool would likely be impossible.

by kabdib 16y ago

dansingerman 16y ago

Web development has long since moved on past WSDL and SOAP; they've now been relegated to the domain of Enterprise software. As for the claim that the proliferation of frameworks indicates a problem, well I completely disagree. They are so many frameworks because progress is being made improving the technology all the time. This is a good thing; it is how progress is made. By your logic there is a problem with the automotive industry (people keep making new cars), the computer hardware industry (new chips), in fact pretty much every industry that exists today. It's human (hacker?) nature to think there must be a better way, and do something about it.

absconditus 16y ago
Enterprise software is where much of the industry is employed. SOAP is becoming more prevalent, not less.
- dansingerman 16y ago
  This is a thread about web development though.
  - absconditus 16y ago
    Can enterprise software not be web-based?
    - dansingerman 16y ago
      Yes it can. In fact if the article was about how enterprise web development using SOAP and XML was broken I'd be fully supportive of it, given how web development has matured past that to leaner, more suitable technologies (REST/JSON) But that's really a different conversation.
      - absconditus 16y ago
        You must be using "web development" in a way that I have never encountered before.
- pavel_lishin 16y ago
  > Enterprise software is where much of the industry is employed. > SOAP is becoming more prevalent, not less. [ citation needed ]
  - absconditus 16y ago
    If you find the first statement controversial then I suggest stepping outside of the world of HN once in a while. As to the second claim, SOAP is very popular with Java and .Net developers, especially when they have taken up the latest fad, SOA. There are also entire industries, such as healthcare, that are heavily pushing SOAP-based standards for data exchange.
    - ebiester 16y ago
AbyCodes 16y ago
|"By your logic there is a problem with the automotive industry (people keep making new cars)" But you don't see infinite procedures to make the same car. Web frameworks aren't solving new problems. They are competing with other frameworks which does the exact same thing.

sleight42 16y ago

I empathize with this point (I even up voted) but I don't entirely agree. I want to say that we should have some grand unified abstraction for describing web applications but that doesn't represent reality outside of web development. We're still living in a world with multiple OSs (never mind the browser war). The technology world isn't isn't unified. if it truly were, would we be able to express solutions to arbitrary problems? Such a unified solution as you hope for would implicitly prevent the flexibility that allows for technological advancement. Ruby on Rails "golden path" approach is actually a good example of this. Development is easier following the path. Deviate and it gets tricky quickly. But at least it's possible to deviate. I believe the solution you posit would result in a black box approach to development with only one right way if even one at all. Deviation from the intended use of such a tool would likely be impossible.