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It actually didn't save anyone because there was never any risk of hospital overload when panic didn't set in: Sweden has one of the lowest ICU capacities in Eu

It actually didn't save anyone because there was never any risk of hospital overload when panic didn't set in: Sweden has one of the lowest ICU capacities in Europe and never saw hospital overload. A few places did, but that's because they over-reacted and quarantined lots of their medical staff. That's the reaction not the virus.

pvaldes 6y ago
It does not matter so much if you die in the hospital or in your home, in the end you are still dead. Deterring people to go to the hospitals, that are destined to save lifes, so they die at home instead, is not brilliant advice. They can (and will) sell it as a success, but Swedden still had much more people killed than their twin country Norway. The fact that those hospital rooms where not occupied despite having some elders in need of specialized care, is a failure, not a success. > was never any risk of hospital overload I think that many physicians in the planet would tell a very different history.
- nickthemagicman 6y ago
  This is an arbitrary distinction to compare Sweden to Norway(who also had no mask mandate), cherry picked to fit your narrative. Sweden had deaths on par with the average of all of European countries less than Italy, Spain, the UK, etc.
  - pvaldes 6y ago
    Take in mind that the family structure is different in South and North Europe. Southern Europe homes are often multigenerational. Having gransons and grandpas living together increases the risk. Many granpas live alone in Swedden. Their results would be even worse if we remove this structural difference. If we can't compare Swedden With Norway, maybe you would prefer Denmark? 645 danish killed versus 5875 Sweddish. Even if we correct the difference in population, is still much lower (around 1290 versus 5875). They are not much different populations genetically. Do you have any hypothesis that would explain the difference?
    - nickthemagicman 6y ago
      Wheres your evidence that Italy has more multigenerational households than Sweden? Do you have a citation? That's scientifically unsubstantiated and almost like you made it up on the spot based on anecdotal information. Also, you're cherry picking again to suit your narrative. Sweden is part of Europe and should be compared as such. It's disingenuous to keep promoting this demon-ization of Sweden narrative with unsubstantiated, and cherry picked comments. Sweden did the right thing. Other countries did not. It's that simple.
      - pvaldes 6y ago
        You can find easily those data in Eurostat of course, that is the official channel for those things in EU. Mean age of youngsters leaving parental home to live in their own home. Data from 2019: - Italy: 30.1 Years old. - European Union: 26.2 Years old - Swedden: 17.8 Years old. So... Yes, definitely I would say that they are very different societies. This, most probably, saved Swedden several deaths. > Sweden is part of Europe and should be compared as such. For your information, Czechia is an European country, same as Denmark
        nickthemagicman 6y ago
        Sounds like that would be an easy graph to draw. Correlate all of the countries covid death per capita with age youngsters leave the home. See if that's a valid observation and holds true across countries... or just a single data point that you pulled out of thin air. Have there been any actual studies to support this hypothesis or are you making this up to support your narrative? It seems to be just an endless rabbit hole of unsubstantiated correlations and cherry picking.
        pvaldes 6y ago
        Too busy watching Susanna Hoffs videos in internet currently, (I prefer to choose my own rabbit holes, thanks), but I will make all this studies next year, all of then, each one. Maybe. If I'm very bored. Mortally bored. I promise. (Homework for the weekend?... LOL, who do you think I am? your secretary?)
- thu2111 6y ago
  Sweden didn't deter people from going to the hospitals. That's what happened in places like the UK, where the government literally told people to "protect the NHS", and the UK has consequently had one of the highest death rates in Europe. but Swedden still had much more people killed than their twin country Norway. So what? Zero deaths was not ever a goal of lockdowns, and cannot have been because there's no logical way to get from that policy to that outcome. You've done what lockdown advocates always do when Sweden comes up: not just shift the goalposts but move them entirely out of the field. At any rate, Norway may simply have not had the disease spread through the population yet, or they may have just got lucky - seasonal flu always hits some countries and not others for unexplained reasons. It doesn't ultimately matter. Sweden disproved epidemiological models, and thus the actions taken on their basis were not justified. As for physicians, luckily the opinion of a doctor here or there is not sufficient to change actual data or observed reality. Fortunately most doctors are sensible: there are plenty who have been outspoken against lockdown precisely because it emptied the hospitals and clinics leaving them with a huge backlog of patients who they could have saved but now cannot.
Retric 6y ago
Sweden’s compliance and low population density looks very different from most countries. Social distancing[edit] On 16 March 2020, the agency recommended that people over 70 should limit close contact with other people, and avoid crowded areas such as stores, public transport and public spaces.[112] At the end of March, 93% of those older than 70 said that they were following the recommendations from the health service to some extent, with the majority having decreased their contacts with friends and family.[113] In May, the agency looked at easening the recommendations for the 'young elderly' of good health, but ultimately decided against it. The US might be keeping school systems closed, but movie theaters for example are open across most of the country. Mask compliance for example tracks closely with where areas that are currently experiencing outbreaks in the US. That likely says more about overall compliance than the effectiveness of masks. PS: It’s random mixing between groups that really spreads diseases. Individual classrooms where people see the same people every day may have outbreaks, but that’s all local transmission.
pvaldes 6y ago
To add context, If Swedden would have the same population as Spain, the number of killed people at the current ratio would be 26907. In Czechia (a country with a similar population that Swedden) would be 2489 instead. Less than ten times lower. Swedden has not such stellar results as they are trying to sell.
ddingus 6y ago
Reevaluate that for the US.

pvaldes 6y ago

It does not matter so much if you die in the hospital or in your home, in the end you are still dead. Deterring people to go to the hospitals, that are destined to save lifes, so they die at home instead, is not brilliant advice. They can (and will) sell it as a success, but Swedden still had much more people killed than their twin country Norway. The fact that those hospital rooms where not occupied despite having some elders in need of specialized care, is a failure, not a success. > was never any risk of hospital overload I think that many physicians in the planet would tell a very different history.

nickthemagicman 6y ago
This is an arbitrary distinction to compare Sweden to Norway(who also had no mask mandate), cherry picked to fit your narrative. Sweden had deaths on par with the average of all of European countries less than Italy, Spain, the UK, etc.
- pvaldes 6y ago
  Take in mind that the family structure is different in South and North Europe. Southern Europe homes are often multigenerational. Having gransons and grandpas living together increases the risk. Many granpas live alone in Swedden. Their results would be even worse if we remove this structural difference. If we can't compare Swedden With Norway, maybe you would prefer Denmark? 645 danish killed versus 5875 Sweddish. Even if we correct the difference in population, is still much lower (around 1290 versus 5875). They are not much different populations genetically. Do you have any hypothesis that would explain the difference?
  - nickthemagicman 6y ago
    Wheres your evidence that Italy has more multigenerational households than Sweden? Do you have a citation? That's scientifically unsubstantiated and almost like you made it up on the spot based on anecdotal information. Also, you're cherry picking again to suit your narrative. Sweden is part of Europe and should be compared as such. It's disingenuous to keep promoting this demon-ization of Sweden narrative with unsubstantiated, and cherry picked comments. Sweden did the right thing. Other countries did not. It's that simple.
    - pvaldes 6y ago
      You can find easily those data in Eurostat of course, that is the official channel for those things in EU. Mean age of youngsters leaving parental home to live in their own home. Data from 2019: - Italy: 30.1 Years old. - European Union: 26.2 Years old - Swedden: 17.8 Years old. So... Yes, definitely I would say that they are very different societies. This, most probably, saved Swedden several deaths. > Sweden is part of Europe and should be compared as such. For your information, Czechia is an European country, same as Denmark
      - nickthemagicman 6y ago
        Sounds like that would be an easy graph to draw. Correlate all of the countries covid death per capita with age youngsters leave the home. See if that's a valid observation and holds true across countries... or just a single data point that you pulled out of thin air. Have there been any actual studies to support this hypothesis or are you making this up to support your narrative? It seems to be just an endless rabbit hole of unsubstantiated correlations and cherry picking.
        pvaldes 6y ago
        Too busy watching Susanna Hoffs videos in internet currently, (I prefer to choose my own rabbit holes, thanks), but I will make all this studies next year, all of then, each one. Maybe. If I'm very bored. Mortally bored. I promise. (Homework for the weekend?... LOL, who do you think I am? your secretary?)
thu2111 6y ago
Sweden didn't deter people from going to the hospitals. That's what happened in places like the UK, where the government literally told people to "protect the NHS", and the UK has consequently had one of the highest death rates in Europe. but Swedden still had much more people killed than their twin country Norway. So what? Zero deaths was not ever a goal of lockdowns, and cannot have been because there's no logical way to get from that policy to that outcome. You've done what lockdown advocates always do when Sweden comes up: not just shift the goalposts but move them entirely out of the field. At any rate, Norway may simply have not had the disease spread through the population yet, or they may have just got lucky - seasonal flu always hits some countries and not others for unexplained reasons. It doesn't ultimately matter. Sweden disproved epidemiological models, and thus the actions taken on their basis were not justified. As for physicians, luckily the opinion of a doctor here or there is not sufficient to change actual data or observed reality. Fortunately most doctors are sensible: there are plenty who have been outspoken against lockdown precisely because it emptied the hospitals and clinics leaving them with a huge backlog of patients who they could have saved but now cannot.

Retric 6y ago

Sweden’s compliance and low population density looks very different from most countries. Social distancing[edit] On 16 March 2020, the agency recommended that people over 70 should limit close contact with other people, and avoid crowded areas such as stores, public transport and public spaces.[112] At the end of March, 93% of those older than 70 said that they were following the recommendations from the health service to some extent, with the majority having decreased their contacts with friends and family.[113] In May, the agency looked at easening the recommendations for the 'young elderly' of good health, but ultimately decided against it. The US might be keeping school systems closed, but movie theaters for example are open across most of the country. Mask compliance for example tracks closely with where areas that are currently experiencing outbreaks in the US. That likely says more about overall compliance than the effectiveness of masks. PS: It’s random mixing between groups that really spreads diseases. Individual classrooms where people see the same people every day may have outbreaks, but that’s all local transmission.

pvaldes 6y ago

To add context, If Swedden would have the same population as Spain, the number of killed people at the current ratio would be 26907. In Czechia (a country with a similar population that Swedden) would be 2489 instead. Less than ten times lower. Swedden has not such stellar results as they are trying to sell.

ddingus 6y ago

Reevaluate that for the US.