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How have you gained so much insight into Russia’s long-term geopolitical strategy and deduced that their primary goal is malice against American people? Through

by xtian 6y ago

How have you gained so much insight into Russia’s long-term geopolitical strategy and deduced that their primary goal is malice against American people? Through US media? Why do you think they’d invest considerable national resources into this malice for the powerless citizenry? And why do you think this supposed intent matters so much? Do you think outcomes will be worse for the people of the US than living under Pinochet or in modern-day Fallujah? Or do you think polarization and misinformation are not the least of the strategies the US uses in its foreign interventions? I’m legitimately confused by your viewpoint.

slg 6y ago
Intent matters in society. There is a difference between murder and manslaughter. We don't know the ultimate result of all this on the US since we are right in the middle of it. It is possible things turn out relatively fine, but the US democracy right now is on the edge of collapse. The most recent example of such is that we have generals worried about a coup. [1] Also the US isn't the only target of this type of behavior. Russia is doing it to numerous other countries and it is being reported in both foreign media and by various academics. I have explained my viewpoint numerous times. I don't think I need to explain it any more. I am legitimately confused on what you are trying to achieve by repeatedly questioning that viewpoint. I already admitted the US does bad things. I am not making a value judgement of US versus Russia. I am stating that the specific situation outlined matches closer to Russia's behavior than the US's. [1] - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/25/us/politics/trump-military-election.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/25/us/politics/trump-militar...
- DenisM 6y ago
  > the US democracy right now is on the edge of collapse How so? The elections are happening, legislature legislates, judicial system is adjudicating, the military is following the constitution. What are the signs of the collapse? The sole link you provided has nothing to do with a coup - it talks about Trump potentially deploying military to quell riots. It is his constitutional right to do, however the generals are of course free to resign from this. Is this a coup on your book?
  - jakelazaroff 6y ago
    > The elections are happening, legislature legislates, judicial system is adjudicating, the military is following the constitution. "Collapse of democracy" doesn't impute lawlessness. The attempt to cripple the USPS under DeJoy was legal, for example. If the US continues its slide into authoritarianism, you can bet it will happen with the pretense of legality. But that aside, Trump has indicated that he won't honor the election result [1]. GP's link mentions that as well, and links to the article: > “Get rid of the ballots and you’ll have a very peaceful — there won’t be a transfer, frankly. There will be a continuation,” the president said. There are also many scenarios in which the election result leads us into Constitutionally uncharted territory. The Atlantic painted some plausible pictures recently [2], including a quote from a Trump campaign legal advisor about appointing electors that don't match a state's popular vote result: > According to sources in the Republican Party at the state and national levels, the Trump campaign is discussing contingency plans to bypass election results and appoint loyal electors in battleground states where Republicans hold the legislative majority. With a justification based on claims of rampant fraud, Trump would ask state legislators to set aside the popular vote and exercise their power to choose a slate of electors directly. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/23/us/politics/trump-power-transfer-2020-election.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/23/us/politics/trump-power-t... [2] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/what-if-trump-refuses-concede/616424/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/what-if...
    - DenisM 6y ago
      > If the US continues its slide into authoritarianism, you can bet it will happen with the pretense of legality And how is this going to happen? The Constitution puts firm limits on the President's power, the Supreme court will not approve of anything contrary to that (no matter who appointed the justices), and the Congress is not going to change the constitution by a vote of 2/3rd. What is the mechanism of usurping power that you see?
      - jakelazaroff 6y ago
        Trump gets re-elected, by hook or by crook, and spends the next four years continuing to dismantle political infrastructure? Republican congresspeople continue to rubber stamp his agenda and Democrats offer only token resistance? The courts that Trump and McConnell have spent the past four years packing only rule against the most flagrant of Constitutional violations? Trump has spent the last four years flagrantly breaking the law and suffered no real consequences. It strains credulity that he wouldn’t accelerate this with another four years and a solid Supreme Court majority.
- xtian 6y ago
  My point is simply that on the level of geopolitics there isn’t a difference between murder and manslaughter. You keep asserting that there is without articulating the material ramifications of that difference for the actual people who live in a country. And I fail to see how the US fits into the category of manslaughter anyway. For instance, there has been plenty of strong and well-documented anti-communist malice at the highest levels of power in US government and intelligence. But even so, imperialist histories like to portray this country as somehow stumbling into the atrocities it has committed.

by xtian 6y ago

slg 6y ago

Intent matters in society. There is a difference between murder and manslaughter. We don't know the ultimate result of all this on the US since we are right in the middle of it. It is possible things turn out relatively fine, but the US democracy right now is on the edge of collapse. The most recent example of such is that we have generals worried about a coup. [1] Also the US isn't the only target of this type of behavior. Russia is doing it to numerous other countries and it is being reported in both foreign media and by various academics. I have explained my viewpoint numerous times. I don't think I need to explain it any more. I am legitimately confused on what you are trying to achieve by repeatedly questioning that viewpoint. I already admitted the US does bad things. I am not making a value judgement of US versus Russia. I am stating that the specific situation outlined matches closer to Russia's behavior than the US's. [1] - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/25/us/politics/trump-military-election.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/25/us/politics/trump-militar...

DenisM 6y ago
> the US democracy right now is on the edge of collapse How so? The elections are happening, legislature legislates, judicial system is adjudicating, the military is following the constitution. What are the signs of the collapse? The sole link you provided has nothing to do with a coup - it talks about Trump potentially deploying military to quell riots. It is his constitutional right to do, however the generals are of course free to resign from this. Is this a coup on your book?
- jakelazaroff 6y ago
  > The elections are happening, legislature legislates, judicial system is adjudicating, the military is following the constitution. "Collapse of democracy" doesn't impute lawlessness. The attempt to cripple the USPS under DeJoy was legal, for example. If the US continues its slide into authoritarianism, you can bet it will happen with the pretense of legality. But that aside, Trump has indicated that he won't honor the election result [1]. GP's link mentions that as well, and links to the article: > “Get rid of the ballots and you’ll have a very peaceful — there won’t be a transfer, frankly. There will be a continuation,” the president said. There are also many scenarios in which the election result leads us into Constitutionally uncharted territory. The Atlantic painted some plausible pictures recently [2], including a quote from a Trump campaign legal advisor about appointing electors that don't match a state's popular vote result: > According to sources in the Republican Party at the state and national levels, the Trump campaign is discussing contingency plans to bypass election results and appoint loyal electors in battleground states where Republicans hold the legislative majority. With a justification based on claims of rampant fraud, Trump would ask state legislators to set aside the popular vote and exercise their power to choose a slate of electors directly. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/23/us/politics/trump-power-transfer-2020-election.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/23/us/politics/trump-power-t... [2] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/what-if-trump-refuses-concede/616424/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/what-if...
  - DenisM 6y ago
    > If the US continues its slide into authoritarianism, you can bet it will happen with the pretense of legality And how is this going to happen? The Constitution puts firm limits on the President's power, the Supreme court will not approve of anything contrary to that (no matter who appointed the justices), and the Congress is not going to change the constitution by a vote of 2/3rd. What is the mechanism of usurping power that you see?
    - jakelazaroff 6y ago
      Trump gets re-elected, by hook or by crook, and spends the next four years continuing to dismantle political infrastructure? Republican congresspeople continue to rubber stamp his agenda and Democrats offer only token resistance? The courts that Trump and McConnell have spent the past four years packing only rule against the most flagrant of Constitutional violations? Trump has spent the last four years flagrantly breaking the law and suffered no real consequences. It strains credulity that he wouldn’t accelerate this with another four years and a solid Supreme Court majority.
xtian 6y ago
My point is simply that on the level of geopolitics there isn’t a difference between murder and manslaughter. You keep asserting that there is without articulating the material ramifications of that difference for the actual people who live in a country. And I fail to see how the US fits into the category of manslaughter anyway. For instance, there has been plenty of strong and well-documented anti-communist malice at the highest levels of power in US government and intelligence. But even so, imperialist histories like to portray this country as somehow stumbling into the atrocities it has committed.