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Vikings in Chichén Itzá. Wow. That would be pretty stunning. > Could the Vikings who left a settlement at L’Anse aux Meadows have made it to the Yucatán Penins

Vikings in Chichén Itzá. Wow. That would be pretty stunning. > Could the Vikings who left a settlement at L’Anse aux Meadows have made it to the Yucatán Peninsula – some 3,700 miles (c6,000 km) south of where the Viking penny surfaced at the Goddard site? One of the murals at the Temple of Warriors, painted around 1000 CE, depicted a naval battle scene showing blond-haired men being thrown into the water.

markdown 6y ago
> blond-haired men Do 1000yr old murals retain their color enough to be able to tell that the subjects originally had blonde hair?
- liability 6y ago
  If the original were still intact, perhaps chemical analysis of the pigments used could provide information about this. Unfortunately it seems that can't be done since the mural was destroyed decades ago. But maybe fragments of it remain in the area waiting to be found?
- gpm 6y ago
  I don't know anything about how these murals were made. 1000yr old books do for the most part. Silver pigment will have turned grey, but other high quality pigments were often based on minerals that are still vibrant to this day. (Cheap pignents on the other hand were often organic, which would often not have lasted).
- mumblemumble 6y ago
  Google for pictures of it. It's quite vibrant. There are even older Egyptian murals that are still colorful, too. Pigments can last a long time if you keep them out of the light. That said, once you have looked at a picture of the mural, I strongly doubt you'll come away thinking that it's a picture of Vikings.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    While the particular mural may be in good shape I think it's worth pointing out that those Egyptian murals exist in the second best climate on earth for preservation (the first being the Antarctic desert). Nature is trying much harder to destroy anything of archeological significance in the jungles of central and South America and the Atlantic coast of the Northeast US and Canada. We're just never gonna have great information about these societies because a much larger fraction of the stuff they left behind will be gone.
    - liability 6y ago
      > While the particular mural may be in good shape It isn't, it's gone. The image in the article is a watercolor reproduction made in the 1920s-30s. And even when they found it, it was as deteriorating fragments on the floor, which were subsequently lost to a hurricane.
      - qubex 6y ago
        It’s stunning how much discussion is being made by people who haven’t read TFA.
        throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        God forbid I not fact check everything in the comment I am replying to.
8bitsrule 6y ago
In the tradition, the article shares a lot of tantalizing speculation. For example, did the Mayans really trade with Chaco for turquoise (the mineral)? Found one reference that said the Mayans did make the color. Conceivably the Norse 'penny' reached Maine as a trade object. Etc. fun stuff to think about.
- AlotOfReading 6y ago
  The author is simply out-of-date. Turquoise found in Central and Southern Mexican sites was for a long time thought to be Southwestern. Eventually isotopic analysis determined that to be pretty unlikely. It probably comes from unknown sources somewhere in the Mexican highlands that may not exist anymore. Same story with cacao, which may have come from West Mexico instead. Likewise, the macaws referenced were bred in Paquime [1] in the Southwest itself (and perhaps elsewhere). We have the breeding rooms and baby skeletons to support it. The unforgivably outdated info is the part about mesoamerican nobles living in Chaco. That's a super old and kind of racist narrative you typically see from people writing in like the 30s-50s. You'd have to ignore half a century of exploration into the emergence of political complexity in the SW to believe it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casas_Grandes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casas_Grandes
  - liability 6y ago
    > The unforgivably outdated info is the part about mesoamerican nobles living in Chaco. That's a super old and kind of racist narrative you typically see from people writing in like the 30s-50s. You'd have to ignore half a century of exploration into the emergence of political complexity in the SW to believe it. Wait what? You lost me here. The article clearly attributes the settlement of Chaco Canyon to the Ancestral Puebloans, which seems to be the current mainstream belief at least as Wikipedia presents it. It notes one skeleton with notched teeth, but doesn't seem to say anything about it being indicative nobility. With respect to that practice in Mayan culture, Wikipedia says "Overall, little evidence for the relationship between socioeconomic status and types of dental modification exists."
    - 6y ago
nickt 6y ago
That would be a great movie.
x87678r 6y ago
It wouldn't surprise me if Scandinavians wanted to spend the Winter in the Caribbean.

markdown 6y ago

> blond-haired men Do 1000yr old murals retain their color enough to be able to tell that the subjects originally had blonde hair?

liability 6y ago
If the original were still intact, perhaps chemical analysis of the pigments used could provide information about this. Unfortunately it seems that can't be done since the mural was destroyed decades ago. But maybe fragments of it remain in the area waiting to be found?
gpm 6y ago
I don't know anything about how these murals were made. 1000yr old books do for the most part. Silver pigment will have turned grey, but other high quality pigments were often based on minerals that are still vibrant to this day. (Cheap pignents on the other hand were often organic, which would often not have lasted).
mumblemumble 6y ago
Google for pictures of it. It's quite vibrant. There are even older Egyptian murals that are still colorful, too. Pigments can last a long time if you keep them out of the light. That said, once you have looked at a picture of the mural, I strongly doubt you'll come away thinking that it's a picture of Vikings.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  While the particular mural may be in good shape I think it's worth pointing out that those Egyptian murals exist in the second best climate on earth for preservation (the first being the Antarctic desert). Nature is trying much harder to destroy anything of archeological significance in the jungles of central and South America and the Atlantic coast of the Northeast US and Canada. We're just never gonna have great information about these societies because a much larger fraction of the stuff they left behind will be gone.
  - liability 6y ago
    > While the particular mural may be in good shape It isn't, it's gone. The image in the article is a watercolor reproduction made in the 1920s-30s. And even when they found it, it was as deteriorating fragments on the floor, which were subsequently lost to a hurricane.
    - qubex 6y ago
      It’s stunning how much discussion is being made by people who haven’t read TFA.
      - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        God forbid I not fact check everything in the comment I am replying to.

8bitsrule 6y ago

In the tradition, the article shares a lot of tantalizing speculation. For example, did the Mayans really trade with Chaco for turquoise (the mineral)? Found one reference that said the Mayans did make the color. Conceivably the Norse 'penny' reached Maine as a trade object. Etc. fun stuff to think about.

AlotOfReading 6y ago
The author is simply out-of-date. Turquoise found in Central and Southern Mexican sites was for a long time thought to be Southwestern. Eventually isotopic analysis determined that to be pretty unlikely. It probably comes from unknown sources somewhere in the Mexican highlands that may not exist anymore. Same story with cacao, which may have come from West Mexico instead. Likewise, the macaws referenced were bred in Paquime [1] in the Southwest itself (and perhaps elsewhere). We have the breeding rooms and baby skeletons to support it. The unforgivably outdated info is the part about mesoamerican nobles living in Chaco. That's a super old and kind of racist narrative you typically see from people writing in like the 30s-50s. You'd have to ignore half a century of exploration into the emergence of political complexity in the SW to believe it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casas_Grandes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casas_Grandes
- liability 6y ago
  > The unforgivably outdated info is the part about mesoamerican nobles living in Chaco. That's a super old and kind of racist narrative you typically see from people writing in like the 30s-50s. You'd have to ignore half a century of exploration into the emergence of political complexity in the SW to believe it. Wait what? You lost me here. The article clearly attributes the settlement of Chaco Canyon to the Ancestral Puebloans, which seems to be the current mainstream belief at least as Wikipedia presents it. It notes one skeleton with notched teeth, but doesn't seem to say anything about it being indicative nobility. With respect to that practice in Mayan culture, Wikipedia says "Overall, little evidence for the relationship between socioeconomic status and types of dental modification exists."
  - 6y ago

nickt 6y ago

That would be a great movie.

x87678r 6y ago

It wouldn't surprise me if Scandinavians wanted to spend the Winter in the Caribbean.