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What bothers me is the trademark issue. Why should Oracle keep OpenOffice and the fork has to use another name? Trademarks exist to protect the public. Which of

by Vlasta 15y ago

What bothers me is the trademark issue. Why should Oracle keep OpenOffice and the fork has to use another name? Trademarks exist to protect the public. Which of the projects is more true to the original one?

bruce511 15y ago
Trademarks are a legal thing - they are in effect "owned by someone". While the _code_ is open-source, that doesn't mean other people can come along and just use your trademark. Nor does it mean that a project originator should just have to "give up" the trademark to anyone who comes calling. If you want the trademark to be owned by a neutral body, then by all means create a body to hold the trademark. That's a choice for the project originator (who usually holds the trademark). In this case there's no dispute that Oracle "owns" the trademark. Leaving aside the legal implications of a trademark for the moment, your hypothesis is flawed at a social level. Who, after all, is "the community". Let's take an imaginary product - which was created by Fred and is now being developed by a "community" of 10 developers. There are say 200 users of the product. Now 3 of Fred's developers decide to go and work on a fork. Does Fred give them rights to use his product name? What then does he call his product? How do customers differentiate between the two products with the same name? Since anyone can fork at any time, should we have 25 projects with the same name in the same product space? Ok, 3 seems a little low - what about 6? What if 3 of those developers joined the project in the last month? Does their leaving count as more or less? What about if 9 developers leave? How best then to determine which is best for the community of users? Who determines which project is "more true" to the original project? what criteria do we use to measure"trueness"? Does the language dictate trueness? Does the location of the original project lead? In other words, your point is completely moot. Oracle gets to keep the name because they own it. period. (Although it seems they might now be prepared to give it up.) People have the right to fork the code at any time they like, but it's not in our interest to allow them to use the same name. The public is best served, and protected, by changing the name of forked projects. Anything else is just worse.
- Vlasta 15y ago
  It is not that easy - that's why I added the comment - to start the discussion about open source and trademarks. From wikipedia (sorry): "Trademark law is designed to fulfill the public policy objective of consumer protection, by preventing the public from being misled as to the origin or quality of a product or service. By identifying the commercial source of products and services, trademarks facilitate identification of products and services which meet the expectations of consumers as to quality and other characteristics." Trademarks exist to protect consumers, not the "owning" companies. In case of open source projects, this does not work so well and there are problems you have mentioned in your reply.
  - bruce511 15y ago
    The "protection" you speak of is that consumers can associate a producer with a product. In this case the producer of the original product was Sun which is now part of Oracle. Thus someone who gets an update for "Open Office" is getting it from the one true source for Open Office. The freedoms provided by the Open-Source license allow someone to fork that code to create a "new improved product" - but that product can't be called "Open Office". In this way consumers can't think they're getting x and end up with y. If the consumers are concerned about Open Office, then it's their choice to go to Libre Office. They are in effect opting-in to a change. Changes of this nature have to be opt-in, there's no way around that. Allowing multiple people to use a trademark, or worse encouraging court battles over who is the "one true heir" to a trademark would not be in the consumers interest. Clearly a fork can not have any claim on a product name because if it did there exists the possibility for infinite forks, and infinite products with the same name. This in no way serves the consumer, and specifically it does not facilitate the identification of the product, not does it serve to identify quality or other characteristics.
    - Vlasta 15y ago
      In some countries, when trademarks are transferred, there must be a continuity in the underlying product or the trademark is lost. (You cannot just buy a famous trademark and ship something completely different with a sticker placed on it.) Anyway, as you stated in the last paragraph, there may be an infinite number of forks, and that is the core of the problem with trademarks and open source. At the moment of forking, the source codes is identical. Then they start to differ. Which one is truer to the original one? Software is not a shoe. I see the continuity of a software project in the philosophy behind it. Who is the true producer (the one that guarantees the "quality" for the consumer) in this case? The organization or the community? Which part of the community? In my opinion, this is a big problem that needs to be solved in the future. Maybe using a trademark are not a good idea for an open source project...
gojomo 15y ago
I'd say LibreOffice is a better name. 'Open' is one of the most overused and diluted terms in tech. 'OpenOffice' sounds like a floorplan or an error state when the last person leaves without locking the door. And, for the average user, does it matter more that the software is 'open' (whatever that means), or that it is 'free'/'Free' (as hinted by Libre)? I'd say Oracle did the fork a favor by zealously guarding the old trademark.
- sandGorgon 15y ago
  I have said this before and I'll say it again. Libreoffice is a terrible name because it is unpronouncable ESPECIALLY for non-native english speakers. This is not an untested axiom, it is a reality that I face. Most people understand even a highly accented "open office". OTOH, listen to these vastly different pronounciations of libre : http://www.forvo.com/word/temps_libre/ http://www.forvo.com/word/temps_libre/ http://www.forvo.com/word/libre/ http://www.forvo.com/word/libre/ In addition, the first 3 pages of a google search for "free office" does not turn up libreoffice (the first hit is OpenOffice). I'm sure this can be fixed with a bit of SEO, but I'm afraid TDF isnt thinking about its target demographic: non techies.
  - TillE 15y ago
    > vastly different pronounciations Are they? Not very, IMO. Ask a German how to pronounce "Python" :-) http://www.forvo.com/word/python http://www.forvo.com/word/python
  - smazero 15y ago
    Wait, what? Now I'm confused about how I've been saying libre. Isn't it a french/spanish word anyway (same word different pronunciation)? Which non-native english speakers are you talking about? My pronunciation (as a native english speaker) is pretty much like the spanish version I guess. That said I don't think it's a particular fantastic name.
    - MikeKusold 15y ago
      I was confused by this too. If anything it should be harder for native English speakers unless they know French/Spanish also.

by Vlasta 15y ago

bruce511 15y ago

Trademarks are a legal thing - they are in effect "owned by someone". While the _code_ is open-source, that doesn't mean other people can come along and just use your trademark. Nor does it mean that a project originator should just have to "give up" the trademark to anyone who comes calling. If you want the trademark to be owned by a neutral body, then by all means create a body to hold the trademark. That's a choice for the project originator (who usually holds the trademark). In this case there's no dispute that Oracle "owns" the trademark. Leaving aside the legal implications of a trademark for the moment, your hypothesis is flawed at a social level. Who, after all, is "the community". Let's take an imaginary product - which was created by Fred and is now being developed by a "community" of 10 developers. There are say 200 users of the product. Now 3 of Fred's developers decide to go and work on a fork. Does Fred give them rights to use his product name? What then does he call his product? How do customers differentiate between the two products with the same name? Since anyone can fork at any time, should we have 25 projects with the same name in the same product space? Ok, 3 seems a little low - what about 6? What if 3 of those developers joined the project in the last month? Does their leaving count as more or less? What about if 9 developers leave? How best then to determine which is best for the community of users? Who determines which project is "more true" to the original project? what criteria do we use to measure"trueness"? Does the language dictate trueness? Does the location of the original project lead? In other words, your point is completely moot. Oracle gets to keep the name because they own it. period. (Although it seems they might now be prepared to give it up.) People have the right to fork the code at any time they like, but it's not in our interest to allow them to use the same name. The public is best served, and protected, by changing the name of forked projects. Anything else is just worse.

Vlasta 15y ago
It is not that easy - that's why I added the comment - to start the discussion about open source and trademarks. From wikipedia (sorry): "Trademark law is designed to fulfill the public policy objective of consumer protection, by preventing the public from being misled as to the origin or quality of a product or service. By identifying the commercial source of products and services, trademarks facilitate identification of products and services which meet the expectations of consumers as to quality and other characteristics." Trademarks exist to protect consumers, not the "owning" companies. In case of open source projects, this does not work so well and there are problems you have mentioned in your reply.
- bruce511 15y ago
  The "protection" you speak of is that consumers can associate a producer with a product. In this case the producer of the original product was Sun which is now part of Oracle. Thus someone who gets an update for "Open Office" is getting it from the one true source for Open Office. The freedoms provided by the Open-Source license allow someone to fork that code to create a "new improved product" - but that product can't be called "Open Office". In this way consumers can't think they're getting x and end up with y. If the consumers are concerned about Open Office, then it's their choice to go to Libre Office. They are in effect opting-in to a change. Changes of this nature have to be opt-in, there's no way around that. Allowing multiple people to use a trademark, or worse encouraging court battles over who is the "one true heir" to a trademark would not be in the consumers interest. Clearly a fork can not have any claim on a product name because if it did there exists the possibility for infinite forks, and infinite products with the same name. This in no way serves the consumer, and specifically it does not facilitate the identification of the product, not does it serve to identify quality or other characteristics.
  - Vlasta 15y ago
    In some countries, when trademarks are transferred, there must be a continuity in the underlying product or the trademark is lost. (You cannot just buy a famous trademark and ship something completely different with a sticker placed on it.) Anyway, as you stated in the last paragraph, there may be an infinite number of forks, and that is the core of the problem with trademarks and open source. At the moment of forking, the source codes is identical. Then they start to differ. Which one is truer to the original one? Software is not a shoe. I see the continuity of a software project in the philosophy behind it. Who is the true producer (the one that guarantees the "quality" for the consumer) in this case? The organization or the community? Which part of the community? In my opinion, this is a big problem that needs to be solved in the future. Maybe using a trademark are not a good idea for an open source project...

gojomo 15y ago

I'd say LibreOffice is a better name. 'Open' is one of the most overused and diluted terms in tech. 'OpenOffice' sounds like a floorplan or an error state when the last person leaves without locking the door. And, for the average user, does it matter more that the software is 'open' (whatever that means), or that it is 'free'/'Free' (as hinted by Libre)? I'd say Oracle did the fork a favor by zealously guarding the old trademark.

sandGorgon 15y ago
I have said this before and I'll say it again. Libreoffice is a terrible name because it is unpronouncable ESPECIALLY for non-native english speakers. This is not an untested axiom, it is a reality that I face. Most people understand even a highly accented "open office". OTOH, listen to these vastly different pronounciations of libre : http://www.forvo.com/word/temps_libre/ http://www.forvo.com/word/temps_libre/ http://www.forvo.com/word/libre/ http://www.forvo.com/word/libre/ In addition, the first 3 pages of a google search for "free office" does not turn up libreoffice (the first hit is OpenOffice). I'm sure this can be fixed with a bit of SEO, but I'm afraid TDF isnt thinking about its target demographic: non techies.
- TillE 15y ago
  > vastly different pronounciations Are they? Not very, IMO. Ask a German how to pronounce "Python" :-) http://www.forvo.com/word/python http://www.forvo.com/word/python
- smazero 15y ago
  Wait, what? Now I'm confused about how I've been saying libre. Isn't it a french/spanish word anyway (same word different pronunciation)? Which non-native english speakers are you talking about? My pronunciation (as a native english speaker) is pretty much like the spanish version I guess. That said I don't think it's a particular fantastic name.
  - MikeKusold 15y ago
    I was confused by this too. If anything it should be harder for native English speakers unless they know French/Spanish also.