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Just to be clear, my point was that reasonable people can disagree on these issues. Do you think that reasonable people can disagree on these issues or not? Bu

Just to be clear, my point was that reasonable people can disagree on these issues. Do you think that reasonable people can disagree on these issues or not? But I'll also address some of the counterpoints raised above: -The supreme court ruled in 2018 on some aspects of detention hearings and of course their ruling is being followed by ICE[1]. So to say that its unconstitutional seems at the very least up for debate, and at the most already settled affirmatively. -Medical care. I read this article[2], and my reading of it is that ICE generally provides decent care with the exceptions noted in the report/article. These stories seem to be most similar to the stories we heard coming out of the VA hospitals a few years ago - aka due to large government orgs being incompetent not evil. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennings_v._Rodriguez https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennings_v._Rodriguez [2]https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/ice-detainees-health-care-report/2020/09/21/270a64f4-fc1e-11ea-830c-a160b331ca62_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/ice-detainees-hea...

arrosenberg 6y ago
> Just to be clear, my point was that reasonable people can disagree on these issues. Do you think that reasonable people can disagree on these issues or not? About immigration laws, yes. About civil rights, no. > Medical care. I read this article[2], and my reading of it is that ICE generally provides decent care with the exceptions noted in the report/article. These stories seem to be most similar to the stories we heard coming out of the VA hospitals a few years ago - aka due to large government orgs being incompetent not evil. I wasn't accusing them of being evil. Your original point was that people should keep politics out of business on grey issues. The Trump administration has moved this from a grey issue where good people could look the other way on incompetence-related failures to a black-and-white issue where it's tough to tell where the incompetence ends and the malice begins. Since the government is incapable of doing anything useful right now, it shouldn't be that surprising when people with a voice seek redress in the areas they have power. Corporations are at zenith of their power and influence right now, so it follows that people would take advantage of that.
redis_mlc 6y ago
> Just to be clear, my point was that reasonable people can disagree on these issues. Do you think that reasonable people can disagree on these issues or not? Not on the child prisoner treatment by ICE, since nobody thinks that has been or was handled properly, regardless of political party affiliation. You don't seize children and then "lose them in the system", or put them on concrete floors to sleep, or fail to provide classes, or the dozens of other things they were subjected to, as reported by both the media and visiting doctors. You can read about the infamous Romanian orphanages fiasco to understand the long-term impact of this kind of treatment on children. (Textbooks had to be re-written on child psychology problems after that.) For those unaware, ICE also holds adult detainees in tents out in the middle of the desert without adequate AC, from what I've read. If you're 100% healthy you would live a while, but not if you're ill in any way. Regarding the VA failures, at least the patients were old enough to advocate for themselves, unlike children. tuna-piano: Why are you attempting to defend something that can't be defended, and is actively harmful to children? Are your writings sophistry, were you bribed, or what is the story exactly?
zizbang 6y ago
Seems to me the WP article was not trying to give a comprehensive list of ICE medical negligence. The more I google the more different cases of it I find https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/04/us/immigrant-medical-care-wellpath-invs/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/04/us/immigrant-medical-care-wel... https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/the-harrowing-two-year-detention-of-a-transgender-asylum-seeker https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/the-harrowing-two-ye... https://www.immigrationresearch.org/system/files/HJ-Health-in-Immigration-Detention-Report_2017.pdf https://www.immigrationresearch.org/system/files/HJ-Health-i... https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/19/trump-administration-sued-medical-care-immigration-centers-1467605 https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/19/trump-administrati... https://www.aclu.org/news/immigrants-rights/immigration-detention-was-a-black-box-before-covid-19-now-its-a-death-trap https://www.aclu.org/news/immigrants-rights/immigration-dete...

arrosenberg 6y ago

> Just to be clear, my point was that reasonable people can disagree on these issues. Do you think that reasonable people can disagree on these issues or not? About immigration laws, yes. About civil rights, no. > Medical care. I read this article[2], and my reading of it is that ICE generally provides decent care with the exceptions noted in the report/article. These stories seem to be most similar to the stories we heard coming out of the VA hospitals a few years ago - aka due to large government orgs being incompetent not evil. I wasn't accusing them of being evil. Your original point was that people should keep politics out of business on grey issues. The Trump administration has moved this from a grey issue where good people could look the other way on incompetence-related failures to a black-and-white issue where it's tough to tell where the incompetence ends and the malice begins. Since the government is incapable of doing anything useful right now, it shouldn't be that surprising when people with a voice seek redress in the areas they have power. Corporations are at zenith of their power and influence right now, so it follows that people would take advantage of that.

redis_mlc 6y ago

> Just to be clear, my point was that reasonable people can disagree on these issues. Do you think that reasonable people can disagree on these issues or not? Not on the child prisoner treatment by ICE, since nobody thinks that has been or was handled properly, regardless of political party affiliation. You don't seize children and then "lose them in the system", or put them on concrete floors to sleep, or fail to provide classes, or the dozens of other things they were subjected to, as reported by both the media and visiting doctors. You can read about the infamous Romanian orphanages fiasco to understand the long-term impact of this kind of treatment on children. (Textbooks had to be re-written on child psychology problems after that.) For those unaware, ICE also holds adult detainees in tents out in the middle of the desert without adequate AC, from what I've read. If you're 100% healthy you would live a while, but not if you're ill in any way. Regarding the VA failures, at least the patients were old enough to advocate for themselves, unlike children. tuna-piano: Why are you attempting to defend something that can't be defended, and is actively harmful to children? Are your writings sophistry, were you bribed, or what is the story exactly?

zizbang 6y ago

Seems to me the WP article was not trying to give a comprehensive list of ICE medical negligence. The more I google the more different cases of it I find https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/04/us/immigrant-medical-care-wellpath-invs/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/04/us/immigrant-medical-care-wel... https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/the-harrowing-two-year-detention-of-a-transgender-asylum-seeker https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/the-harrowing-two-ye... https://www.immigrationresearch.org/system/files/HJ-Health-in-Immigration-Detention-Report_2017.pdf https://www.immigrationresearch.org/system/files/HJ-Health-i... https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/19/trump-administration-sued-medical-care-immigration-centers-1467605 https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/19/trump-administrati... https://www.aclu.org/news/immigrants-rights/immigration-detention-was-a-black-box-before-covid-19-now-its-a-death-trap https://www.aclu.org/news/immigrants-rights/immigration-dete...