5 ms·

I actually think that it's totally legitimate to call out whoever you want (employer, customer, vendor, friend, family, etc) when you believe there is a clearly

I actually think that it's totally legitimate to call out whoever you want (employer, customer, vendor, friend, family, etc) when you believe there is a clearly and grossly immoral action being carried out. But when there's a "I can see both sides but I strongly feel x because y" you should leave your political beliefs to your non-business relationships. Reasonable people can disagree on immigration laws generally or ICE specifically! And I'm disappointed to see the level of confidence people have that anyone who disagrees with them is evil. I wonder how people feel about immigration laws in other countries. Would Hootsuite employees be mad about working with the Thai department of immigration? Is it really grossly immoral to have immigration checkpoints, borders and laws... and corresponding enforcement of those laws?

nickff 6y ago
Canada has a history of being more restrictive and less forgiving of 'permissionless entry' than the USA, so it will be interesting to see how Hootsuite transacts with the Canadian government.
- spoopyskelly 6y ago
  Canada is OK with the Twitter folks because PM Blackface has good optics.
therealdrag0 6y ago
The impression I've gotten is that while some people have coarse/simple views of how some of these things are bad. The main focus is not on them as institutions so much as how they treat those in their custody. Enforcement doesn't need to be abusive.
Pils 6y ago
>Is it really immoral to have immigration checkpoints, borders and laws... and corresponding enforcement of those laws? I think you are letting your subjective moral lens cloud your judgement. The fact of the matter is certain immigration policies and directives are more effective and have lower political and social costs than other ones. A utilitarian immigration policy framework would perform significantly better than the current "border" rhetoric which has led to billion dollar make-work in the middle of nowhere.
- tuna-piano 6y ago
  I don't understand what "utilitarian immigration policy framework" means, but in any case policies are made by congress not by ICE. In fact it would be quite undemocratic for ICE to decide universally they aren't going to enforce the laws that congress made.
arrosenberg 6y ago
> Is it really grossly immoral to have immigration checkpoints, borders and laws... and corresponding enforcement of those laws? I don't think many people, of any political affiliation, are making an argument for open borders — that's a red herring. I do think it is grossly immoral to detain and intern immigrants at the border indefinitely, house them in substandard living facilities, separate them from their children, and both refuse and force (in different instances) medical treatment without consent. All of those things would appear to violate Federal and International law, on top of being the wrong thing to do.
- nickff 6y ago
  >"I don't think many people, of any political affiliation, are making an argument for open borders — that's a red herring." Open borders are quite a popular policy among libertarians, though perhaps that just goes to show how far libertarians are from the 'mainstream' of democrats and republicans.[1][2][3] [1] https://reason.com/tag/open-borders/ https://reason.com/tag/open-borders/ [2] https://www.vox.com/2014/9/13/6135905/open-borders-bryan-caplan-interview-gdp-double https://www.vox.com/2014/9/13/6135905/open-borders-bryan-cap... [3] https://www.hoover.org/research/graphic-case-open-borders https://www.hoover.org/research/graphic-case-open-borders
  - tuna-piano 6y ago
    Open borders and free trade share a lot of economic characteristics. Why should the US only get the benefits of foreign labor only while that labor is outside of the country? Crime is one reason. Immigrants from different backgrounds, countries, etc have different propensities to commit crimes. Inequality of negative effects is another reason. If we allow in unlimited hair cutters - of course the wage for hair cutters in the US may decline.
- tuna-piano 6y ago
  I'm going to put alternative arguments below to try and show there is a reasonable discussion to be had on this topic. My actual views are more complex. >I do think it is grossly immoral to detain and intern immigrants at the border indefinitely, house them in substandard living facilities, aka jails. Places for those who committed crimes and who are awaiting procedures for removal. What would you suggest instead? It's worth noting they allow many out into the country with electronic monitoring. The US also allows refugees to stay and has (imperfect, but mostly fair) legal procedures for removal. >separate them from their children, A now ended policy that is the same as for people in jail for any other non-immigration crime. Of course immigration crimes are both non-violent and where economic harm is diffused (if it even exists), which is why people feel sympathy for these families. >and both refuse and force (in different instances) medical treatment without consent. Which would be improper. The recent case of the OBGYN doctor is both unproven and if proven would lead to imprisonment and universal condemnation. The truth is that thousands of immigrants come here illegally with nothing and get world class medical treatment for no charge. Any cases where that doesn't happen are news because they are exceptions, not the rule.
cwkoss 6y ago
If the Thai department of immigration was separating children from the families, locking them in cages in dangerous conditions and forcing hysterectomies on women in their custody... I'd sure hope so
- e9 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_refugee_children_in_Thailand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_refugee_children_... https://www.globaldetentionproject.org/countries/asia-pacific/thailand https://www.globaldetentionproject.org/countries/asia-pacifi... https://www.ucanews.com/news/caged-like-animals-inside-bangkoks-notorious-idc/87104 https://www.ucanews.com/news/caged-like-animals-inside-bangk...

nickff 6y ago

Canada has a history of being more restrictive and less forgiving of 'permissionless entry' than the USA, so it will be interesting to see how Hootsuite transacts with the Canadian government.

spoopyskelly 6y ago
Canada is OK with the Twitter folks because PM Blackface has good optics.

therealdrag0 6y ago

The impression I've gotten is that while some people have coarse/simple views of how some of these things are bad. The main focus is not on them as institutions so much as how they treat those in their custody. Enforcement doesn't need to be abusive.

Pils 6y ago

>Is it really immoral to have immigration checkpoints, borders and laws... and corresponding enforcement of those laws? I think you are letting your subjective moral lens cloud your judgement. The fact of the matter is certain immigration policies and directives are more effective and have lower political and social costs than other ones. A utilitarian immigration policy framework would perform significantly better than the current "border" rhetoric which has led to billion dollar make-work in the middle of nowhere.

tuna-piano 6y ago
I don't understand what "utilitarian immigration policy framework" means, but in any case policies are made by congress not by ICE. In fact it would be quite undemocratic for ICE to decide universally they aren't going to enforce the laws that congress made.

arrosenberg 6y ago

> Is it really grossly immoral to have immigration checkpoints, borders and laws... and corresponding enforcement of those laws? I don't think many people, of any political affiliation, are making an argument for open borders — that's a red herring. I do think it is grossly immoral to detain and intern immigrants at the border indefinitely, house them in substandard living facilities, separate them from their children, and both refuse and force (in different instances) medical treatment without consent. All of those things would appear to violate Federal and International law, on top of being the wrong thing to do.

nickff 6y ago
>"I don't think many people, of any political affiliation, are making an argument for open borders — that's a red herring." Open borders are quite a popular policy among libertarians, though perhaps that just goes to show how far libertarians are from the 'mainstream' of democrats and republicans.[1][2][3] [1] https://reason.com/tag/open-borders/ https://reason.com/tag/open-borders/ [2] https://www.vox.com/2014/9/13/6135905/open-borders-bryan-caplan-interview-gdp-double https://www.vox.com/2014/9/13/6135905/open-borders-bryan-cap... [3] https://www.hoover.org/research/graphic-case-open-borders https://www.hoover.org/research/graphic-case-open-borders
- tuna-piano 6y ago
  Open borders and free trade share a lot of economic characteristics. Why should the US only get the benefits of foreign labor only while that labor is outside of the country? Crime is one reason. Immigrants from different backgrounds, countries, etc have different propensities to commit crimes. Inequality of negative effects is another reason. If we allow in unlimited hair cutters - of course the wage for hair cutters in the US may decline.
tuna-piano 6y ago
I'm going to put alternative arguments below to try and show there is a reasonable discussion to be had on this topic. My actual views are more complex. >I do think it is grossly immoral to detain and intern immigrants at the border indefinitely, house them in substandard living facilities, aka jails. Places for those who committed crimes and who are awaiting procedures for removal. What would you suggest instead? It's worth noting they allow many out into the country with electronic monitoring. The US also allows refugees to stay and has (imperfect, but mostly fair) legal procedures for removal. >separate them from their children, A now ended policy that is the same as for people in jail for any other non-immigration crime. Of course immigration crimes are both non-violent and where economic harm is diffused (if it even exists), which is why people feel sympathy for these families. >and both refuse and force (in different instances) medical treatment without consent. Which would be improper. The recent case of the OBGYN doctor is both unproven and if proven would lead to imprisonment and universal condemnation. The truth is that thousands of immigrants come here illegally with nothing and get world class medical treatment for no charge. Any cases where that doesn't happen are news because they are exceptions, not the rule.

cwkoss 6y ago

If the Thai department of immigration was separating children from the families, locking them in cages in dangerous conditions and forcing hysterectomies on women in their custody... I'd sure hope so

e9 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_refugee_children_in_Thailand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_refugee_children_... https://www.globaldetentionproject.org/countries/asia-pacific/thailand https://www.globaldetentionproject.org/countries/asia-pacifi... https://www.ucanews.com/news/caged-like-animals-inside-bangkoks-notorious-idc/87104 https://www.ucanews.com/news/caged-like-animals-inside-bangk...