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I love that they're continuing the Dark Forest analogy! Makes me also realize I never want to dip my toe in crypto like that. It's like an amateur going up to a

I love that they're continuing the Dark Forest analogy! Makes me also realize I never want to dip my toe in crypto like that. It's like an amateur going up to an entirely unregulated wall street and expecting to earn some quick cash.

nullc 6y ago
The word you want here is "ethereum" not "crypto". Crypto is cryptography, and even if you want to redefine it as 'cryptocurrency' the sheer reckless yolo incompetence and scammyness of ethereum is not especially representative.
- ladberg 6y ago
  I think "crypto" can mean cryptography or cryptocurrency depending on context. Every cryptocurrency I've seen has a Dark Forest, even if it's not as bad as Ethereum. For example, if you create a private key using something guessable [1], point a camera at a QR code [2], or make a wallet using software you didn't write yourself [3], you can expect your money to irreversibly disappear faster than you can react. [1] https://www.wired.com/story/blockchain-bandit-ethereum-weak-private-keys/ https://www.wired.com/story/blockchain-bandit-ethereum-weak-... [2] https://www.theverge.com/2013/12/23/5238764/news-anchor-receives-bitcoin-as-a-christmas-gift-on-air-stolen-promptly https://www.theverge.com/2013/12/23/5238764/news-anchor-rece... [3] https://cryptonews.com/news/popular-private-key-generator-compromised-fake-crypto-wallet-3941.htm https://cryptonews.com/news/popular-private-key-generator-co...
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  There are worse coins out there than etherium
- swensel 6y ago
  In terms of ethereum, do you mean ethereum smart contracts? The ethereum platform, as defined by it's creators, is actually quite technical. Anyone who spends the time to learn the Solidity language and what it takes to deploy a smart contract is free to, so yes there can be legitimate, illegitimate, poorly designed or well designed smart contracts, just like other software programs.
- microtherion 6y ago
  What IS a "representative" cryptocurrency, then, if the #2 by market cap is not representative? Would it be Bitcoin, used for such time-honored business as drug purchases and hiring contract killers? Would it be Tether, the fiat currency for people who think that central banks are excessively transparent? The one extra element that Ethereum brings to the table is computationally much more powerful contracts, which makes it technically intriguing, but also adds another level of scammyness and incompetence to the enterprise.
  - d3nj4l 6y ago
    > Would it be Bitcoin, used for such time-honored business as drug purchases and hiring contract killers? Well, at least it's used for business! Do people use eth for meatspace transactions, at all?
  - BTCOG 6y ago
    Perpetuating myth and propaganda that even the US government doesn't say about Bitcoin, I see. Did you pay attention to the recent Bloomberg article about cryptocurrencies being the best gaining asset class of 2020, or the article about the $2 trillion dollars worth of laundered money being done using traditional USD and banks? And how much money was laundered through Bitcoin again? A money that is very hard to hide. Bitcoin has smart contracting so it would appear you're just regurgitating things you've read rather than reaching into an in-dept knowledge on this subject.
    - microtherion 6y ago
      > cryptocurrencies being the best gaining asset class of 2020 And tulips were the best gaining asset class of 1636. The existence of speculation is not proof of the soundness of the underlying asset. > trillion dollars worth of laundered money being done using traditional USD The difference being that I have firsthand knowledge of honest economic activity being conducted with USD. I see practically zero evidence of cryptocurrencies being used in any honest economic activity, other than speculation. > Bitcoin has smart contracting Yes, but my understanding is that Ethereum can handle much more complex contracts.
pron 6y ago
Amateur has nothing to do with that. Ethereum, and "smart contracts" in general, are built on such shaky foundations that unless shakiness is what you're looking for, you have nothing of interest to find there.
- vvpan 6y ago
  Can you elaborate? Why do you find that "smart contracts" are built on a shaky foundation?
  - drchopchop 6y ago
    Because there is no real formal verification process for smart contracts, it's extremely easy to slip bugs into the contract code, the contract itself is generally immutable (can't fix bugs), and the effects of a breach are generally catastrophic and irreversible. Need more reasons?
    - BTCOG 6y ago
      This as well. Immutable bugs.
    - vvpan 6y ago
      You are incorrect. Contracts are immutable but you can upgrade your application. There are different patterns, one where you make a shell contract that has pointers to contracts with actual business logic. Also, there are patterns where the user needs to confirm that yes they want to use the new version. There are also systems of insurance on contracts.
    - ShorsHammer 6y ago
      > there is no real formal verification process for smart contracts Not following here, instead of process you mean no requirement to do so? The process is pretty clear and simple, there's a few different frameworks being built for smart contract formal verification along with the traditional methods working fine. What was the last bit of code you wrote or used that was formally verified? https://sci-hub.se/https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8905010 https://sci-hub.se/https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8905...

nullc 6y ago

The word you want here is "ethereum" not "crypto". Crypto is cryptography, and even if you want to redefine it as 'cryptocurrency' the sheer reckless yolo incompetence and scammyness of ethereum is not especially representative.

ladberg 6y ago
I think "crypto" can mean cryptography or cryptocurrency depending on context. Every cryptocurrency I've seen has a Dark Forest, even if it's not as bad as Ethereum. For example, if you create a private key using something guessable [1], point a camera at a QR code [2], or make a wallet using software you didn't write yourself [3], you can expect your money to irreversibly disappear faster than you can react. [1] https://www.wired.com/story/blockchain-bandit-ethereum-weak-private-keys/ https://www.wired.com/story/blockchain-bandit-ethereum-weak-... [2] https://www.theverge.com/2013/12/23/5238764/news-anchor-receives-bitcoin-as-a-christmas-gift-on-air-stolen-promptly https://www.theverge.com/2013/12/23/5238764/news-anchor-rece... [3] https://cryptonews.com/news/popular-private-key-generator-compromised-fake-crypto-wallet-3941.htm https://cryptonews.com/news/popular-private-key-generator-co...
ClumsyPilot 6y ago
There are worse coins out there than etherium
swensel 6y ago
In terms of ethereum, do you mean ethereum smart contracts? The ethereum platform, as defined by it's creators, is actually quite technical. Anyone who spends the time to learn the Solidity language and what it takes to deploy a smart contract is free to, so yes there can be legitimate, illegitimate, poorly designed or well designed smart contracts, just like other software programs.
microtherion 6y ago
What IS a "representative" cryptocurrency, then, if the #2 by market cap is not representative? Would it be Bitcoin, used for such time-honored business as drug purchases and hiring contract killers? Would it be Tether, the fiat currency for people who think that central banks are excessively transparent? The one extra element that Ethereum brings to the table is computationally much more powerful contracts, which makes it technically intriguing, but also adds another level of scammyness and incompetence to the enterprise.
- d3nj4l 6y ago
  > Would it be Bitcoin, used for such time-honored business as drug purchases and hiring contract killers? Well, at least it's used for business! Do people use eth for meatspace transactions, at all?
- BTCOG 6y ago
  Perpetuating myth and propaganda that even the US government doesn't say about Bitcoin, I see. Did you pay attention to the recent Bloomberg article about cryptocurrencies being the best gaining asset class of 2020, or the article about the $2 trillion dollars worth of laundered money being done using traditional USD and banks? And how much money was laundered through Bitcoin again? A money that is very hard to hide. Bitcoin has smart contracting so it would appear you're just regurgitating things you've read rather than reaching into an in-dept knowledge on this subject.
  - microtherion 6y ago
    > cryptocurrencies being the best gaining asset class of 2020 And tulips were the best gaining asset class of 1636. The existence of speculation is not proof of the soundness of the underlying asset. > trillion dollars worth of laundered money being done using traditional USD The difference being that I have firsthand knowledge of honest economic activity being conducted with USD. I see practically zero evidence of cryptocurrencies being used in any honest economic activity, other than speculation. > Bitcoin has smart contracting Yes, but my understanding is that Ethereum can handle much more complex contracts.

pron 6y ago

Amateur has nothing to do with that. Ethereum, and "smart contracts" in general, are built on such shaky foundations that unless shakiness is what you're looking for, you have nothing of interest to find there.

vvpan 6y ago
Can you elaborate? Why do you find that "smart contracts" are built on a shaky foundation?
- drchopchop 6y ago
  Because there is no real formal verification process for smart contracts, it's extremely easy to slip bugs into the contract code, the contract itself is generally immutable (can't fix bugs), and the effects of a breach are generally catastrophic and irreversible. Need more reasons?
  - BTCOG 6y ago
    This as well. Immutable bugs.
  - vvpan 6y ago
    You are incorrect. Contracts are immutable but you can upgrade your application. There are different patterns, one where you make a shell contract that has pointers to contracts with actual business logic. Also, there are patterns where the user needs to confirm that yes they want to use the new version. There are also systems of insurance on contracts.
  - ShorsHammer 6y ago
    > there is no real formal verification process for smart contracts Not following here, instead of process you mean no requirement to do so? The process is pretty clear and simple, there's a few different frameworks being built for smart contract formal verification along with the traditional methods working fine. What was the last bit of code you wrote or used that was formally verified? https://sci-hub.se/https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8905010 https://sci-hub.se/https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8905...