5 ms·

Analogies can be powerful if told well. It just so happens that they're hard to tell well. Source: Cheerios

lotsofpulp 6y ago
What does it mean for an analogy to be powerful? I typically see analogies used to support an argument, which analogies don't do. Hence you see the conversation break down into whether or not the analogy is accurate or not. Analogies illustrate a concept. They don't establish reasoning or causation or proof.
- curiousllama 6y ago
  > Analogies illustrate a concept Effectively illustrating the right concept is, in my opinion, the hardest part of communication. Analogies are powerful because they're intuitive illustrations. > I typically see analogies used to support an argument, which analogies don't do Yes and no. Analogies communicate concepts, and concepts support arguments. Analogies neither support arguments nor fail to support arguments; the concepts they communicate do that. They're hard to use because they can be distracting: if you choose the wrong analogy, you may illustrate an irrelevant concept, rather than the one you mean to. That's why people argue: you mean to illustrate [concept A], but what pops into the receiver's mind is [concept A] AND [concept B]. So now you're not on the same page about what was just said. Look at the cheerios example: how may related-but-not-the-same examples have popped up in the comments? It's a bad analogy: it needs to be much more narrow and specific.
  - dev_tty01 6y ago
    This distracting off-topic sub-thread about distracting analogies is wonderfully ironic.
- slaymaker1907 6y ago
  They can certainly work as a proof, it's just one of the conditions on it being proof usually fail. Argument by metaphor says that A and B are isomorphic to one another and that since they are isomorphic, we can apply proofs from A to B (maybe with some modification). The problems come from either establishing the isomorphism or in mapping properties/predicates from one to the other.
- mikepurvis 6y ago
  I think they can be helpful for achieving that initial critical mass of understanding around a topic ("a is to b as x is to y... oh okay, I better understand the relationship between a and b"), but yeah, if you don't unwind the analogy afterward, then it can be a false understanding. I found this kind of thing a struggle in engineering math courses, where you'd often move equations into transformed spaces (frequency domain, whatever), perform operations on them, and then un-transform them to pop out a result. It's like, yes, the transform is obviously an immensely powerful abstraction, but I didn't really trust what was going on in there unless I did at least a few of the exercises from first principles as well, in order to prove to myself that doing operations in the transformed space was "safe".
- leetcrew 6y ago
  argument by analogy is something like A -> B, C is similar to A in all ways that matter, thus (A -> B) -> (C -> D). analogies are powerful when the other person already agrees that (A -> B) and doesn't notice any important differences between A and C. if you use an analogy where the other person doesn't agree that A -> B in the first place, you'll never get anywhere. if they are really stubborn, they will come up with an endless list of reasons why A isn't quite like C, but at least you have a chance of refuting these. analogies are not very good in arguments where the other person is resisting the conclusion you want to draw. they can be great when you are trying to teach/explain something to someone who trusts you though.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    > C is similar to A in all ways that matter I have never seen this be determine-able in real life scenarios >analogies are not very good in arguments where the other person is resisting the conclusion you want to draw. they can be great when you are trying to teach/explain something to someone who trusts you though. This is a great statement to show why analogies are bad and how they are abused.
    - leetcrew 6y ago
      I wouldn't agree that analogies are bad, per se. as a sibling to my original comment pointed out, an analogy is essentially an informal isomorphism. this is a perfectly valid way of proving things in math, and it can often lead guide you to valid conclusions in mathematically grounded fields like physics. >> C is similar to A in all ways that matter > I have never seen this be determine-able in real life scenarios this much I can agree on. when discussing human issues, analogies should be understood to be solely a rhetorical device, useful for persuading people, but not so much for getting to the truth of the matter.
Polylactic_acid 6y ago
I only find them useful for topics I do not understand because they are very complex and abstract. For example the explanation of linking voltage/current/watts to pipes with flowing water made sense to me because electrons moving through a conductor is too abstract but saying "Voltage is like water pressure, it makes the electricity move faster" makes sense.
- abraae 6y ago
  I hate the water / electricity analogies because they don't make sense. Voltage is not like water pressure. If you have a high water pressure, water will inexorably be pushed through the pipe to relieve the pressure. That's so regardless of whether the pipe is 1 inch or 1 yard in diameter. Voltage on the other hand means nothing without current. A high voltage on its own - like static electricity - will not move many electrons through the conductor.
  - Polylactic_acid 6y ago
    A high water pressure in a container will also not move. High pressure water moves to low pressure areas just like high voltage moves to low voltage when a path exists. A larger pipe will push more water at a lower pressure like a low resistance wire will move more energy at a lower voltage.
  - MiroF 6y ago
    > Voltage on the other hand means nothing without current How do you propose you have voltage in a conductive medium (pipe) without current? To me, it's not a bad analogy (nevermind you that electrons flow the opposite direction of current) - and I am well-versed in physics.

What does it mean for an analogy to be powerful? I typically see analogies used to support an argument, which analogies don't do. Hence you see the conversation break down into whether or not the analogy is accurate or not. Analogies illustrate a concept. They don't establish reasoning or causation or proof.

curiousllama 6y ago
> Analogies illustrate a concept Effectively illustrating the right concept is, in my opinion, the hardest part of communication. Analogies are powerful because they're intuitive illustrations. > I typically see analogies used to support an argument, which analogies don't do Yes and no. Analogies communicate concepts, and concepts support arguments. Analogies neither support arguments nor fail to support arguments; the concepts they communicate do that. They're hard to use because they can be distracting: if you choose the wrong analogy, you may illustrate an irrelevant concept, rather than the one you mean to. That's why people argue: you mean to illustrate [concept A], but what pops into the receiver's mind is [concept A] AND [concept B]. So now you're not on the same page about what was just said. Look at the cheerios example: how may related-but-not-the-same examples have popped up in the comments? It's a bad analogy: it needs to be much more narrow and specific.
- dev_tty01 6y ago
  This distracting off-topic sub-thread about distracting analogies is wonderfully ironic.
slaymaker1907 6y ago
They can certainly work as a proof, it's just one of the conditions on it being proof usually fail. Argument by metaphor says that A and B are isomorphic to one another and that since they are isomorphic, we can apply proofs from A to B (maybe with some modification). The problems come from either establishing the isomorphism or in mapping properties/predicates from one to the other.
mikepurvis 6y ago
I think they can be helpful for achieving that initial critical mass of understanding around a topic ("a is to b as x is to y... oh okay, I better understand the relationship between a and b"), but yeah, if you don't unwind the analogy afterward, then it can be a false understanding. I found this kind of thing a struggle in engineering math courses, where you'd often move equations into transformed spaces (frequency domain, whatever), perform operations on them, and then un-transform them to pop out a result. It's like, yes, the transform is obviously an immensely powerful abstraction, but I didn't really trust what was going on in there unless I did at least a few of the exercises from first principles as well, in order to prove to myself that doing operations in the transformed space was "safe".
leetcrew 6y ago
argument by analogy is something like A -> B, C is similar to A in all ways that matter, thus (A -> B) -> (C -> D). analogies are powerful when the other person already agrees that (A -> B) and doesn't notice any important differences between A and C. if you use an analogy where the other person doesn't agree that A -> B in the first place, you'll never get anywhere. if they are really stubborn, they will come up with an endless list of reasons why A isn't quite like C, but at least you have a chance of refuting these. analogies are not very good in arguments where the other person is resisting the conclusion you want to draw. they can be great when you are trying to teach/explain something to someone who trusts you though.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  > C is similar to A in all ways that matter I have never seen this be determine-able in real life scenarios >analogies are not very good in arguments where the other person is resisting the conclusion you want to draw. they can be great when you are trying to teach/explain something to someone who trusts you though. This is a great statement to show why analogies are bad and how they are abused.
  - leetcrew 6y ago
    I wouldn't agree that analogies are bad, per se. as a sibling to my original comment pointed out, an analogy is essentially an informal isomorphism. this is a perfectly valid way of proving things in math, and it can often lead guide you to valid conclusions in mathematically grounded fields like physics. >> C is similar to A in all ways that matter > I have never seen this be determine-able in real life scenarios this much I can agree on. when discussing human issues, analogies should be understood to be solely a rhetorical device, useful for persuading people, but not so much for getting to the truth of the matter.

Polylactic_acid 6y ago

I only find them useful for topics I do not understand because they are very complex and abstract. For example the explanation of linking voltage/current/watts to pipes with flowing water made sense to me because electrons moving through a conductor is too abstract but saying "Voltage is like water pressure, it makes the electricity move faster" makes sense.

abraae 6y ago
I hate the water / electricity analogies because they don't make sense. Voltage is not like water pressure. If you have a high water pressure, water will inexorably be pushed through the pipe to relieve the pressure. That's so regardless of whether the pipe is 1 inch or 1 yard in diameter. Voltage on the other hand means nothing without current. A high voltage on its own - like static electricity - will not move many electrons through the conductor.
- Polylactic_acid 6y ago
  A high water pressure in a container will also not move. High pressure water moves to low pressure areas just like high voltage moves to low voltage when a path exists. A larger pipe will push more water at a lower pressure like a low resistance wire will move more energy at a lower voltage.
- MiroF 6y ago
  > Voltage on the other hand means nothing without current How do you propose you have voltage in a conductive medium (pipe) without current? To me, it's not a bad analogy (nevermind you that electrons flow the opposite direction of current) - and I am well-versed in physics.