5 ms·

>Most users, however, would have a way worse experience using their phone if they were given this option, because a non-trivial percentage of them would follow

>Most users, however, would have a way worse experience using their phone if they were given this option, because a non-trivial percentage of them would follow the tutorials online provided to them by malware authors to install their malware. I think Apple fans exagerrate when they say that most users are so "inexperienced" to get taken advantage off. - this number of completly inexperienced user is not proven to be as large, if you look at Android or OSX you don't see 51% of users having malware on their machine - with the amount of money Apple has they could afford to improve the security by adding more sand boxing and making unlocking of the phone by "tricked incompetent users almost impossible" - I assume apps and websites can use your microphone and camera on your phone, it is under soem popup/permission prompt, why do you trust the "inexperienced users" with the camera permissions some bad person could trick them. - "protecting" an unknown small number of users by limiting the rest makes no sense, what makes more sense is MONEY, Apple makes more money by locking things down and getting 30% from apps, subscrip[tions and the much hated lootboxes

yazaddaruvala 6y ago
> this number of completly inexperienced user is not proven to be as large, if you look at Android or OSX you don't see 51% of users having malware on their machine > "protecting" an unknown small number of users by limiting the rest makes no sense, what makes more sense is MONEY For creating policies 51% is a bad measure. Its inherently biased to be regressive. Setting policies at 51% disproportionately hurts the bottom 1%, 10% and 25% of the populations that need our help the most. This is true of all policies and especially laws. Meanwhile, if you've ever helped your grandma or parents with their computers, you'll realize just how much malware they have already downloaded. I also remember what I was like on Limewire and Kazaa as a kid. There is/was an entire industry built around it for Anti-virus and Malware protection. iOS doesn't require anti-virus or malware protection because Apple builds protection and privacy into the product as a core feature. Sadly, built into Android is malware but even Android is less susceptible to malware from unknown entities.
- simion314 6y ago
  I understand your point but we don't even know if the number of this users that need protecting is even 10%. This imaginary group of people must have this properties: - they are gullible , so bad people can trick them to ignore OS security warnings,create some extra account or security key to unlock the device (Apple can do it hard enough it must not be just 1 click) - at the same time this users are not that gullible to paste their credit card in random websites or on Apple approved chat messages - at the same time this users can be trusted with the app permissions for files,contacts, camera, location For me if I intersect all this sets of users I get void and your argument should be that everything should be locked down, no permissions allowed for this users, there should only Apple approved websites, apple approved contacts, Apple should scan your messages not to send your card details or do stupid things. This people should use an iOS version made for children and adults could use the unlocked version.
  - yazaddaruvala 6y ago
    > they are gullible , so bad people can trick them to ignore OS security warnings > For me if I intersect all this sets of users I get void I work at a pretty big company, where we are trusted to make a lot of important decisions but as I understand it even small companies have trainings to identify "phishing, clickbait, social engineering, etc". Every relatively big company also pre-approves devices that can connected and access the internal network. Installing software needs to be pre-approved. Even my browser Firefox or Chrome settings are pre-selected to ensure no compromising behavior can occur. I know from past-experience, friends and colleagues that my current company is not unique. Because all humans (even the smartest sets) are gullible, it just depends how time constrained, sleep deprived or drunk they are. Additionally, preventative protections on devices are used often even in personal contexts. When I help my mom set up her computer I pre-install everything and she doesn't have the admin password. This is the general recommendation for and by anyone helping someone under-educated about technology and abuse vectors. I've asked if she would rather me teach her and she just prefers using the computer without worry. Neither her, not this situation is unique. That said, I have previously and do agree, Apple should make it easier to boot non-iOS iPhones. However, Apple should only provide that to the registered adult owner of the device, in person at an Apple store after delivering the caveats that the device will no longer be supported by Apple (regardless of resale) and any warranty is void.
nodamage 6y ago
> if you look at Android or OSX you don't see 51% of users having malware on their machine Have you actually looked up the statistics? According to Kaspersky (https://securelist.com/mobile-malware-evolution-2019/96280/ https://securelist.com/mobile-malware-evolution-2019/96280/) mobile malware attacks in 2019 affected: 60.64% of users in Iran, 44.43% in Pakistan, 43.17% in Bangladesh, 40.20% in Algeria, 37.98% in India, 35.12% in Indonesia, etc. These are not small numbers. > - with the amount of money Apple has they could afford to improve the security by adding more sand boxing and making unlocking of the phone by "tricked incompetent users almost impossible" Sandboxing can protect against system vulnerabilities but does not help protect privacy in the same way App Store review guidelines do. (For example, by disallowing user tracking in games designed for children.) > - I assume apps and websites can use your microphone and camera on your phone, it is under soem popup/permission prompt, why do you trust the "inexperienced users" with the camera permissions some bad person could trick them. Temporary access to a microphone or camera is nowhere the same level of security risk as allowing third-party applications to install other applications on your phone. > - "protecting" an unknown small number of users by limiting the rest makes no sense Again, these are not small numbers of users, nor are they unknown. Android malware routinely infects millions of devices: https://www.zdnet.com/article/this-android-malware-has-infected-85-million-devices-and-makes-its-creators-300000-a-month/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/this-android-malware-has-infec... https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/10/20688885/agent-smith-android-malware-25-million-infections https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/10/20688885/agent-smith-andr...

yazaddaruvala 6y ago

> this number of completly inexperienced user is not proven to be as large, if you look at Android or OSX you don't see 51% of users having malware on their machine > "protecting" an unknown small number of users by limiting the rest makes no sense, what makes more sense is MONEY For creating policies 51% is a bad measure. Its inherently biased to be regressive. Setting policies at 51% disproportionately hurts the bottom 1%, 10% and 25% of the populations that need our help the most. This is true of all policies and especially laws. Meanwhile, if you've ever helped your grandma or parents with their computers, you'll realize just how much malware they have already downloaded. I also remember what I was like on Limewire and Kazaa as a kid. There is/was an entire industry built around it for Anti-virus and Malware protection. iOS doesn't require anti-virus or malware protection because Apple builds protection and privacy into the product as a core feature. Sadly, built into Android is malware but even Android is less susceptible to malware from unknown entities.

simion314 6y ago
I understand your point but we don't even know if the number of this users that need protecting is even 10%. This imaginary group of people must have this properties: - they are gullible , so bad people can trick them to ignore OS security warnings,create some extra account or security key to unlock the device (Apple can do it hard enough it must not be just 1 click) - at the same time this users are not that gullible to paste their credit card in random websites or on Apple approved chat messages - at the same time this users can be trusted with the app permissions for files,contacts, camera, location For me if I intersect all this sets of users I get void and your argument should be that everything should be locked down, no permissions allowed for this users, there should only Apple approved websites, apple approved contacts, Apple should scan your messages not to send your card details or do stupid things. This people should use an iOS version made for children and adults could use the unlocked version.
- yazaddaruvala 6y ago
  > they are gullible , so bad people can trick them to ignore OS security warnings > For me if I intersect all this sets of users I get void I work at a pretty big company, where we are trusted to make a lot of important decisions but as I understand it even small companies have trainings to identify "phishing, clickbait, social engineering, etc". Every relatively big company also pre-approves devices that can connected and access the internal network. Installing software needs to be pre-approved. Even my browser Firefox or Chrome settings are pre-selected to ensure no compromising behavior can occur. I know from past-experience, friends and colleagues that my current company is not unique. Because all humans (even the smartest sets) are gullible, it just depends how time constrained, sleep deprived or drunk they are. Additionally, preventative protections on devices are used often even in personal contexts. When I help my mom set up her computer I pre-install everything and she doesn't have the admin password. This is the general recommendation for and by anyone helping someone under-educated about technology and abuse vectors. I've asked if she would rather me teach her and she just prefers using the computer without worry. Neither her, not this situation is unique. That said, I have previously and do agree, Apple should make it easier to boot non-iOS iPhones. However, Apple should only provide that to the registered adult owner of the device, in person at an Apple store after delivering the caveats that the device will no longer be supported by Apple (regardless of resale) and any warranty is void.

nodamage 6y ago

> if you look at Android or OSX you don't see 51% of users having malware on their machine Have you actually looked up the statistics? According to Kaspersky (https://securelist.com/mobile-malware-evolution-2019/96280/ https://securelist.com/mobile-malware-evolution-2019/96280/) mobile malware attacks in 2019 affected: 60.64% of users in Iran, 44.43% in Pakistan, 43.17% in Bangladesh, 40.20% in Algeria, 37.98% in India, 35.12% in Indonesia, etc. These are not small numbers. > - with the amount of money Apple has they could afford to improve the security by adding more sand boxing and making unlocking of the phone by "tricked incompetent users almost impossible" Sandboxing can protect against system vulnerabilities but does not help protect privacy in the same way App Store review guidelines do. (For example, by disallowing user tracking in games designed for children.) > - I assume apps and websites can use your microphone and camera on your phone, it is under soem popup/permission prompt, why do you trust the "inexperienced users" with the camera permissions some bad person could trick them. Temporary access to a microphone or camera is nowhere the same level of security risk as allowing third-party applications to install other applications on your phone. > - "protecting" an unknown small number of users by limiting the rest makes no sense Again, these are not small numbers of users, nor are they unknown. Android malware routinely infects millions of devices: https://www.zdnet.com/article/this-android-malware-has-infected-85-million-devices-and-makes-its-creators-300000-a-month/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/this-android-malware-has-infec... https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/10/20688885/agent-smith-android-malware-25-million-infections https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/10/20688885/agent-smith-andr...