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My related theory is that it's a decoupling of politics from material outcomes. Both parties are under the control of professional classes who don't actually n

My related theory is that it's a decoupling of politics from material outcomes. Both parties are under the control of professional classes who don't actually need to care about the material outcomes for them. David Brooks type Republicans supported a "tax cut" which raised their taxes. Woke liberals want different TV characters represented while knifing Bernie Sanders in the back. The professional classes have the privilege to engage in culture war, and it's what the parties respond to because that's the donor base. Actual policy and material outcomes are irrelevant to everyone across the spectrum.

082349872349872 6y ago
Oddly, Linebarger (a professional propagandist who, to my knowledge, went 1-1, winning WWII and losing China) claims good propaganda is the opposite: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24373042 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24373042 > "Most enemy themes are beyond reach, especially those of inter-ideological warfare. The Nazis and Russians made the best propaganda against each other when they got down to the basic necessities of life, not when they were trying to weave finespun theories about each other's way of thinking or of life." but on the other hand, Linebarger was aiming at a much wider[1] population than a donor base. [1] http://www.gutenberg.org/files/48612/48612-h/48612-h.htm#Page_150 http://www.gutenberg.org/files/48612/48612-h/48612-h.htm#Pag... > "The first thing to do with the hypothetical man is to make him fit the kind of person who does get propaganda. In dealing with China, for example, it would be no use to take a statistically true Chinese, who lived on a farm 1.3 acres in size, went to town 5.8 times a year, had 3.6 children, and never read newspapers. The man to be set up would be the reachable man, the city, town or village dweller who had an income 2.1 times greater than that of the average in his county, who owned 1.7 long coats, and who shared one newspaper with 6.8 neighbors. Take this lowest-common-denominator of a man who can be reached by enemy propaganda and by yours. Name him the Propaganda Man. (Realistically speaking, modal and not arithmetical classes should be set up.)"
- free_rms 6y ago
  I mean, if we're talking about the Eastern Front, the basic necessities of life were a lot more stark there than they are in 21st century America, right? "These people are coming, and they're gonna kill and rape everyone" is a pretty easy propaganda pitch on material grounds. That's a very interesting quote about the reachable person in an agricultural society. It's worth noting that after taking power, one of Mao's highest priorities was raising the literacy rate.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    Good point, I believe Linebarger was talking about whole-country operations, not just messaging for the fronts. "Political Limitations of Psychological Warfare." and "Definition of the Enemy." are interesting sections. He does mention that communication, even mid-20th century, was prone to retweeting: "German broadcasters who emphasized the anti-capitalist character of National Socialism in the programs beamed to Eastern Europe found that B.B.C. picked up the most tactless statements and repeated them to Western Europe, where the Germans posed as anti-Bolshevik champions of private property. American attacks on the Germans for associating with Japanese monkey-men were passed along by the Japanese to the Chinese, who did not like the slur either." (Another anecdote he tells is about getting into a flame war that went around the world. In hindsight, he regrets getting mixed up in it, yet admits he'd had the dopamine hit at the time.) ==== interesting to view this para of "Political Limitations" in hindsight: > "President Roosevelt, in his conduct of the political world role of the United States, promised Manchuria to the Chinese, Korea "in due course" to the Koreans, and the integrity of the French Colonial Empire to the French; outside of that he avoided specific promises. In another instance (to put a complicated matter baldly), the British promised Palestine to both the Arabs and to the Jews in World War I, and consequently got themselves into a political mess which, thirty years later, was still a mess." It not only explains indochina/vietnam but also I think we could fairly update that "thirty years" to 100.
    - free_rms 6y ago
      It's definitely a super interesting piece, thanks for linking, I've emailed it to myself to give a deeper read. This one resonates with me in our current moment: > From the very beginning the British had the lead. They nailed German propaganda as propaganda, while circulating their own as news, cultural relations, or literature.
eli_gottlieb 6y ago
I don't think you should be downvoted. Admittedly, I agree with your opinion, but I also think you phrased it civilly and made a contribution to the forum.
- free_rms 6y ago
  Thanks :) Point of pride for me if I can get downvoted for a thoroughly classy comment.

082349872349872 6y ago

Oddly, Linebarger (a professional propagandist who, to my knowledge, went 1-1, winning WWII and losing China) claims good propaganda is the opposite: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24373042 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24373042 > "Most enemy themes are beyond reach, especially those of inter-ideological warfare. The Nazis and Russians made the best propaganda against each other when they got down to the basic necessities of life, not when they were trying to weave finespun theories about each other's way of thinking or of life." but on the other hand, Linebarger was aiming at a much wider[1] population than a donor base. [1] http://www.gutenberg.org/files/48612/48612-h/48612-h.htm#Page_150 http://www.gutenberg.org/files/48612/48612-h/48612-h.htm#Pag... > "The first thing to do with the hypothetical man is to make him fit the kind of person who does get propaganda. In dealing with China, for example, it would be no use to take a statistically true Chinese, who lived on a farm 1.3 acres in size, went to town 5.8 times a year, had 3.6 children, and never read newspapers. The man to be set up would be the reachable man, the city, town or village dweller who had an income 2.1 times greater than that of the average in his county, who owned 1.7 long coats, and who shared one newspaper with 6.8 neighbors. Take this lowest-common-denominator of a man who can be reached by enemy propaganda and by yours. Name him the Propaganda Man. (Realistically speaking, modal and not arithmetical classes should be set up.)"

free_rms 6y ago
I mean, if we're talking about the Eastern Front, the basic necessities of life were a lot more stark there than they are in 21st century America, right? "These people are coming, and they're gonna kill and rape everyone" is a pretty easy propaganda pitch on material grounds. That's a very interesting quote about the reachable person in an agricultural society. It's worth noting that after taking power, one of Mao's highest priorities was raising the literacy rate.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Good point, I believe Linebarger was talking about whole-country operations, not just messaging for the fronts. "Political Limitations of Psychological Warfare." and "Definition of the Enemy." are interesting sections. He does mention that communication, even mid-20th century, was prone to retweeting: "German broadcasters who emphasized the anti-capitalist character of National Socialism in the programs beamed to Eastern Europe found that B.B.C. picked up the most tactless statements and repeated them to Western Europe, where the Germans posed as anti-Bolshevik champions of private property. American attacks on the Germans for associating with Japanese monkey-men were passed along by the Japanese to the Chinese, who did not like the slur either." (Another anecdote he tells is about getting into a flame war that went around the world. In hindsight, he regrets getting mixed up in it, yet admits he'd had the dopamine hit at the time.) ==== interesting to view this para of "Political Limitations" in hindsight: > "President Roosevelt, in his conduct of the political world role of the United States, promised Manchuria to the Chinese, Korea "in due course" to the Koreans, and the integrity of the French Colonial Empire to the French; outside of that he avoided specific promises. In another instance (to put a complicated matter baldly), the British promised Palestine to both the Arabs and to the Jews in World War I, and consequently got themselves into a political mess which, thirty years later, was still a mess." It not only explains indochina/vietnam but also I think we could fairly update that "thirty years" to 100.
  - free_rms 6y ago
    It's definitely a super interesting piece, thanks for linking, I've emailed it to myself to give a deeper read. This one resonates with me in our current moment: > From the very beginning the British had the lead. They nailed German propaganda as propaganda, while circulating their own as news, cultural relations, or literature.

eli_gottlieb 6y ago

I don't think you should be downvoted. Admittedly, I agree with your opinion, but I also think you phrased it civilly and made a contribution to the forum.

free_rms 6y ago
Thanks :) Point of pride for me if I can get downvoted for a thoroughly classy comment.