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It looks like you are asking people to have a lot of “good intentions”/hold high moral standard. What are the mechanisms given we are all greedy human?

the_arun 6y ago
Imagine 100% human are greedy - there will be hunger games & we get extinct in no time. Hence, don't we need some moral standard to survive in peace?
- airstrike 6y ago
  Imagine you've coded a little game played by bots in which all of them are greedy and they compete aggressively. How do you set up incentives so that they willingly cooperate, without changing their definitions in the code? Pointing the bots to a higher "moral standard" will not work unless they are programmed to follow it. But you can't refactor humans, sadly
  - the_arun 6y ago
    Yep, humans are not bots (no emotional properties). Moral standard applies to humans because of their EQ.
  - agapon 6y ago
    Now imagine that the bots can learn and can modify their behavior. And eventually through chaotic trials some of them learn that even a small gang can defeat / out-compete a large number of un-associated individuals -- and thus satisfy the greed of each individual gang member. And then they would learn that for a gang to hold its member should observe certain rules. And that those who don't must punished and/or expelled. Because otherwise the whole gang would break up. And so on. And so forth. That's how modern societies came to be. Not through "intelligent design". But though competition, trial and error, learning and adapting.
- bufbupa 6y ago
  I don't think your assertion necessarily holds. There are several schools of philosophy that assert that selfishness is the highest moral standard. If I were selfish enough I should realize that being cooperative with my fellow man was the best way to get more for myself in life. Recognizing that the pie can be grown allows one to align their personal greed with the common good. I don't go to work every day out of the goodness of my heart (some perceived moral standard), but to provide a better life for me and my family. Take for example all the technological progress of the modern era. Little of that would be possible if we didn't have massive, stable, cooperative societies. Any rational, selfish agent should recognize this and not resort to hunger games. This is also the reason capitalism seems generally more productive than communism. Instead of trying to fight or rewrite human nature, its more productive align incentives such that we can harness it.
  - the_arun 6y ago
    Good argument! But logically doesn't line up. The sense of community itself is opposite of selfishness. If a person is selfish they don't think about community. Capitalism mixed with right amount of socialism (or vice versa) thrives! IMHO, being greedy for doing good to others & self (community) - is great! But greedy for only self growth at the cost of anything is dangerous & the success from it is short term. Then the person next to you doesn't think about any morale - thereby destroying the concept of community.

the_arun 6y ago

Imagine 100% human are greedy - there will be hunger games & we get extinct in no time. Hence, don't we need some moral standard to survive in peace?

airstrike 6y ago
Imagine you've coded a little game played by bots in which all of them are greedy and they compete aggressively. How do you set up incentives so that they willingly cooperate, without changing their definitions in the code? Pointing the bots to a higher "moral standard" will not work unless they are programmed to follow it. But you can't refactor humans, sadly
- the_arun 6y ago
  Yep, humans are not bots (no emotional properties). Moral standard applies to humans because of their EQ.
- agapon 6y ago
  Now imagine that the bots can learn and can modify their behavior. And eventually through chaotic trials some of them learn that even a small gang can defeat / out-compete a large number of un-associated individuals -- and thus satisfy the greed of each individual gang member. And then they would learn that for a gang to hold its member should observe certain rules. And that those who don't must punished and/or expelled. Because otherwise the whole gang would break up. And so on. And so forth. That's how modern societies came to be. Not through "intelligent design". But though competition, trial and error, learning and adapting.
bufbupa 6y ago
I don't think your assertion necessarily holds. There are several schools of philosophy that assert that selfishness is the highest moral standard. If I were selfish enough I should realize that being cooperative with my fellow man was the best way to get more for myself in life. Recognizing that the pie can be grown allows one to align their personal greed with the common good. I don't go to work every day out of the goodness of my heart (some perceived moral standard), but to provide a better life for me and my family. Take for example all the technological progress of the modern era. Little of that would be possible if we didn't have massive, stable, cooperative societies. Any rational, selfish agent should recognize this and not resort to hunger games. This is also the reason capitalism seems generally more productive than communism. Instead of trying to fight or rewrite human nature, its more productive align incentives such that we can harness it.
- the_arun 6y ago
  Good argument! But logically doesn't line up. The sense of community itself is opposite of selfishness. If a person is selfish they don't think about community. Capitalism mixed with right amount of socialism (or vice versa) thrives! IMHO, being greedy for doing good to others & self (community) - is great! But greedy for only self growth at the cost of anything is dangerous & the success from it is short term. Then the person next to you doesn't think about any morale - thereby destroying the concept of community.