4 ms·

The slow erosion of control. All your data is on the cloud. Developers coding online. No right to repair the devices you purchase. It's a disaster unfolding in

The slow erosion of control. All your data is on the cloud. Developers coding online. No right to repair the devices you purchase. It's a disaster unfolding in slow motion. I recommend everyone who reads this must do their part to take back control. One of your computers must be a Linux. Diversify your clouds and mobile platforms. One of your browsers must be open source in the true sense. Take control your own data, at the very least have some sort of physical backup for the resources you create (code, music, videos, documents, etc.)

qz2 6y ago
Yes. We're being sold a mainframe again. But a much much worse one. Now without the reliability, documentation, support and consistency.
- throwaway744678 6y ago
  And ownership.
stephc_int13 6y ago
Completely agree. This is an extremely dangerous trend and this is why I stopped using VSCode as I think it is a potential trojan horse.
- Dayshine 6y ago
  Are you aware that VS Code is the driving force behind key standards such as the Language Server Protocol https://langserver.org/ https://langserver.org/ and Debug Adapter Protocol https://microsoft.github.io/debug-adapter-protocol/ https://microsoft.github.io/debug-adapter-protocol/? These standards have revolutionised IDE language support in the last few years meaning I can now run my code on a remote machine and connect to it using VS Code or any other LSP compatible IDE. I write a language server for a niche scripting language, and Microsoft's specs mean that I wrote support for VS Code and now Sublime text, Emacs, Vim, Atom, etc all just have support too. You can, right now, run VS Code on your Linux server, and another copy on your Windows desktop, and just use SSH to connect them seamlessly: https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/remote/ssh https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/remote/ssh Sure, this currently uses a Microsoft server to set up the connection, but I'm sure the moment they lock that down someone would fork the extension and provide an alternative.
  - stephc_int13 6y ago
    VS Code is a formidable piece of engineering, I've used it for years and have mostly been impressed by the quality. The problem is that I sense a potential bait & switch tactic. I don't want to live in world where the norm is that everything in on the so-called "cloud". I want full ownership of my files and my tools.
    - donmcronald 6y ago
      It will be EXACTLY like MS Office IMO. They won’t drop the standalone version outright, but at some point all the new, compelling features will only go into the cloud version. We’ll pay for everything. We’ll be renting our syntax highlighting if they think people will tolerate it. I think we’ll pay per CPU cycle, but the cost will be based on feature tiers. IE: CPU cycles * features = mega profit.
      - Dayshine 6y ago
        > We’ll be renting our syntax highlighting if they think people will tolerate it Again, go look at the LSP. There are already alternative IDEs that are compatible with VS Code extensions. You can use the exact same community written syntax highlighting extension in a different IDE without touching any Microsoft code at all...
  - thejosh 6y ago
    And yet things like the .NET Core debugger which is touted around has an closed license. (Microsoft .NET Core Debugger licensing and Microsoft Visual Studio Code) - https://github.com/OmniSharp/omnisharp-vscode/wiki/Microsoft-.NET-Core-Debugger-licensing-and-Microsoft-Visual-Studio-Code https://github.com/OmniSharp/omnisharp-vscode/wiki/Microsoft... Microsoft mainly does things that helps lock people into their systems. Why do you need to connect to their server at all? It's all about control.
    - Dayshine 6y ago
      What does a specific extension's license have to do with VS Code? The only argument I can see is that they should be going back to all their old corporate contracts and renegotiating them to allow open source, but that's hardly a problem with VS Code. I can release an extension with whatever license I want.
PradeetPatel 6y ago
I understand your concern, but from a business point of view, sometimes outsourcing liability to the cloud is an extremely cost effective way to meet certain regulation and compliance requirements. It would be foolish, if not impossible for a start up's infrastructure to hold the same level of certification as Azure, GCP or AWS.
- stephc_int13 6y ago
  Yeah, this is exactly the kind of bullshit that will be used to force people to work from a "thin client" with 0% ownership.
- donmcronald 6y ago
  My text editor doesn’t need certification. It needs an offline, perpetual license.
choeger 6y ago
Add to this the perspective on developer knowledge: Instead of controlling you dev environment, running the software locally for testing, and having all kinds of tools available you now get developers that only know the github interface to the code base. The have no clue about execution or tooling. All that ends up in the hands of some "specialized" companies or services. That will a) lower the quality of software and b) reduce the value of developers. A little bit like the distintion between IKEA-style furniture and the one you can buy from a carpenter.
- donmcronald 6y ago
  Which version of the pay per user per month, feature tiered debugger would you like to subscribe to? It’s scary IMO.
Abhinav2000 6y ago
There’s a lot of marketing associated with the cloud. It is not that cheap. There are definitely economies of scale with the cloud, but when you see how much profit the big boys make, rest assured, not much of the cost savings are being passed down to you. And there is so much vendor lock-in, I’d much rather just start from scratch and do everything myself. They say the point of the cloud is easy deployment but honestly that only works for hobby projects — anything serious, and you will be tweaking everything quite a bit so there isn’t much benefit of these ready made solutions as you will eventually hit a roadblock that they can’t overcome easily and you will either spend a lot of time making your cloud solution work or abandon it for something else. Definitely a huge risk of losing control, the web and everything is becoming more closed. Agree with you 100% that we need to support open movements
cinntaile 6y ago
While I sympathize with your suggestions, I don't really see the issue with this particular service. This is more about enhancing developers by letting them stop having to set up the same development workflow on different computers. As long as you have access to your data, you could mirror it locally. Should they remove that possibility then you're losing control, if enough people would protest if and when that happens then it would be reversed. Which brings me to my main point. The erosion of control is mostly a voluntary one, cloud offerings make life simpler and more convenient and that's very hard to beat. Especially the ones aimed at consumers. I am confident that people are losing less personal data thanks to the big tech companies, even at the expense of losing control. Therefore it's a net positive for individual consumers, perhaps it's not if you look at the societal level but what would be the main arguments at that level? EDIT Hahaha, there is a certain irony about this getting downvoted in a discussion about erosion of control.
- stephc_int13 6y ago
  At this point in time you have to be slightly paranoid to see the evil side of this development. Erosion of freedom is almost always volontary at first.
  - cinntaile 6y ago
    At this point in time you pretty much have to imagine the evil side if you ask me. There is nothing forcing you to use this service. You're given more possibilities, not less. Which happens to be the opposite of control.
    - donmcronald 6y ago
      There will be discounts, incentives, time saving integrations, etc. to entice people onto the cloud version. Then development on the standalone version will languish. You’ll have a “choice” between the crappy, outdated standalone tool or the awesome, modern online tool. Look how perpetual Office apps vs Office 365 apps work. It’s a slow boil, but eventually the only viable option will be the online version.
donmcronald 6y ago
Now imagine you get banned from GitHub and not only lose access to your data, but lose access to all the online tools you’ve become dependant on. It’s like the App Store debate from a decade ago. It was obvious that opting in to curation was a bad idea, but first movers were rewarded with huge profits because Apple was effectively giving them a ton of free advertising via discovery. This will be the same. The true long term cost of losing control is massive and not being adequately assessed as the huge risk it is.
- stephc_int13 6y ago
  Yes, and there will be no turning back once it's too late; or it will be extremely difficult and painful. Working from a thin client also mean constant monitoring of your work, every characters you type, every mouse movements will be recorded and fed to an AI.

qz2 6y ago

Yes. We're being sold a mainframe again. But a much much worse one. Now without the reliability, documentation, support and consistency.

throwaway744678 6y ago
And ownership.

stephc_int13 6y ago

Completely agree. This is an extremely dangerous trend and this is why I stopped using VSCode as I think it is a potential trojan horse.

Dayshine 6y ago
Are you aware that VS Code is the driving force behind key standards such as the Language Server Protocol https://langserver.org/ https://langserver.org/ and Debug Adapter Protocol https://microsoft.github.io/debug-adapter-protocol/ https://microsoft.github.io/debug-adapter-protocol/? These standards have revolutionised IDE language support in the last few years meaning I can now run my code on a remote machine and connect to it using VS Code or any other LSP compatible IDE. I write a language server for a niche scripting language, and Microsoft's specs mean that I wrote support for VS Code and now Sublime text, Emacs, Vim, Atom, etc all just have support too. You can, right now, run VS Code on your Linux server, and another copy on your Windows desktop, and just use SSH to connect them seamlessly: https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/remote/ssh https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/remote/ssh Sure, this currently uses a Microsoft server to set up the connection, but I'm sure the moment they lock that down someone would fork the extension and provide an alternative.
- stephc_int13 6y ago
  VS Code is a formidable piece of engineering, I've used it for years and have mostly been impressed by the quality. The problem is that I sense a potential bait & switch tactic. I don't want to live in world where the norm is that everything in on the so-called "cloud". I want full ownership of my files and my tools.
  - donmcronald 6y ago
    It will be EXACTLY like MS Office IMO. They won’t drop the standalone version outright, but at some point all the new, compelling features will only go into the cloud version. We’ll pay for everything. We’ll be renting our syntax highlighting if they think people will tolerate it. I think we’ll pay per CPU cycle, but the cost will be based on feature tiers. IE: CPU cycles * features = mega profit.
    - Dayshine 6y ago
      > We’ll be renting our syntax highlighting if they think people will tolerate it Again, go look at the LSP. There are already alternative IDEs that are compatible with VS Code extensions. You can use the exact same community written syntax highlighting extension in a different IDE without touching any Microsoft code at all...
- thejosh 6y ago
  And yet things like the .NET Core debugger which is touted around has an closed license. (Microsoft .NET Core Debugger licensing and Microsoft Visual Studio Code) - https://github.com/OmniSharp/omnisharp-vscode/wiki/Microsoft-.NET-Core-Debugger-licensing-and-Microsoft-Visual-Studio-Code https://github.com/OmniSharp/omnisharp-vscode/wiki/Microsoft... Microsoft mainly does things that helps lock people into their systems. Why do you need to connect to their server at all? It's all about control.
  - Dayshine 6y ago
    What does a specific extension's license have to do with VS Code? The only argument I can see is that they should be going back to all their old corporate contracts and renegotiating them to allow open source, but that's hardly a problem with VS Code. I can release an extension with whatever license I want.

PradeetPatel 6y ago

I understand your concern, but from a business point of view, sometimes outsourcing liability to the cloud is an extremely cost effective way to meet certain regulation and compliance requirements. It would be foolish, if not impossible for a start up's infrastructure to hold the same level of certification as Azure, GCP or AWS.

stephc_int13 6y ago
Yeah, this is exactly the kind of bullshit that will be used to force people to work from a "thin client" with 0% ownership.
donmcronald 6y ago
My text editor doesn’t need certification. It needs an offline, perpetual license.

choeger 6y ago

Add to this the perspective on developer knowledge: Instead of controlling you dev environment, running the software locally for testing, and having all kinds of tools available you now get developers that only know the github interface to the code base. The have no clue about execution or tooling. All that ends up in the hands of some "specialized" companies or services. That will a) lower the quality of software and b) reduce the value of developers. A little bit like the distintion between IKEA-style furniture and the one you can buy from a carpenter.

donmcronald 6y ago
Which version of the pay per user per month, feature tiered debugger would you like to subscribe to? It’s scary IMO.

Abhinav2000 6y ago

There’s a lot of marketing associated with the cloud. It is not that cheap. There are definitely economies of scale with the cloud, but when you see how much profit the big boys make, rest assured, not much of the cost savings are being passed down to you. And there is so much vendor lock-in, I’d much rather just start from scratch and do everything myself. They say the point of the cloud is easy deployment but honestly that only works for hobby projects — anything serious, and you will be tweaking everything quite a bit so there isn’t much benefit of these ready made solutions as you will eventually hit a roadblock that they can’t overcome easily and you will either spend a lot of time making your cloud solution work or abandon it for something else. Definitely a huge risk of losing control, the web and everything is becoming more closed. Agree with you 100% that we need to support open movements

cinntaile 6y ago

While I sympathize with your suggestions, I don't really see the issue with this particular service. This is more about enhancing developers by letting them stop having to set up the same development workflow on different computers. As long as you have access to your data, you could mirror it locally. Should they remove that possibility then you're losing control, if enough people would protest if and when that happens then it would be reversed. Which brings me to my main point. The erosion of control is mostly a voluntary one, cloud offerings make life simpler and more convenient and that's very hard to beat. Especially the ones aimed at consumers. I am confident that people are losing less personal data thanks to the big tech companies, even at the expense of losing control. Therefore it's a net positive for individual consumers, perhaps it's not if you look at the societal level but what would be the main arguments at that level? EDIT Hahaha, there is a certain irony about this getting downvoted in a discussion about erosion of control.

stephc_int13 6y ago
At this point in time you have to be slightly paranoid to see the evil side of this development. Erosion of freedom is almost always volontary at first.
- cinntaile 6y ago
  At this point in time you pretty much have to imagine the evil side if you ask me. There is nothing forcing you to use this service. You're given more possibilities, not less. Which happens to be the opposite of control.
  - donmcronald 6y ago
    There will be discounts, incentives, time saving integrations, etc. to entice people onto the cloud version. Then development on the standalone version will languish. You’ll have a “choice” between the crappy, outdated standalone tool or the awesome, modern online tool. Look how perpetual Office apps vs Office 365 apps work. It’s a slow boil, but eventually the only viable option will be the online version.

donmcronald 6y ago

Now imagine you get banned from GitHub and not only lose access to your data, but lose access to all the online tools you’ve become dependant on. It’s like the App Store debate from a decade ago. It was obvious that opting in to curation was a bad idea, but first movers were rewarded with huge profits because Apple was effectively giving them a ton of free advertising via discovery. This will be the same. The true long term cost of losing control is massive and not being adequately assessed as the huge risk it is.

stephc_int13 6y ago
Yes, and there will be no turning back once it's too late; or it will be extremely difficult and painful. Working from a thin client also mean constant monitoring of your work, every characters you type, every mouse movements will be recorded and fed to an AI.