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Amen. I getting a bit tired of this endless raging on security features. The blog is decent enough and delivers good information. Then it closes off with that f

by bartvk 6y ago

Amen. I getting a bit tired of this endless raging on security features. The blog is decent enough and delivers good information. Then it closes off with that final point and I'm disappointed. We're talking about a webbrowser here, which nowadays has to run untrusted code from internet strangers. Yet the blog says that "SIP and sandboxing are terrible and ought to be abolished", because changing a setting didn't work.

mantap 6y ago
Because we can see where this is all headed. SIP is part of a decade-long plan by Apple to transform the Mac into a platform where people's computers are ultimately controlled by Apple and not the users. And if you don't believe it, try to play the latest Fortnite on the Mac. It is impossible to discuss SIP as "just a security feature" and ignore the context. If this were a feature in Linux then we could discuss it as such.
- bartvk 6y ago
  That may or may not be true, but still it's a good idea for a browser to be supported by OS sandbox features.
_qulr 6y ago
> because changing a setting didn't work That's not why. I've been a Mac developer for 14 years and a Mac user for longer. I've seen the Mac platform enfeebled, dismantled, locked down before my eyes. The conclusion didn't follow from the blog post, it followed from my long-running frustration. Mac software doesn't grow on trees. It needs people like me, who care deeply about this "niche". But people like me are a dying breed. You can have (the illusion of) a "secure" platform, but eventually you'll be left with nothing except apps ported from iOS. At that point, what's the Mac except an extremely overpriced iPad?
- machello13 6y ago
  There are plenty of Mac developers who don’t have the hard line stance you do. Please, please don’t speak for all of us. Sand boxing has made some things a lot harder or impossible but don’t pretend like the Mac has been incredibly crippled or something. Compared to using Tiger in 2006, the only functional difference is a few more password dialogs and some weirdness like this.
  - _qulr 6y ago
    > Please, please don’t speak for all of us. Where do I purport to do that? I speak for myself on my own blog, of course, and also here.
    - machello13 6y ago
      > It needs people like me, who care deeply about this "niche". But people like me are a dying breed. You can have (the illusion of) a "secure" platform, but eventually you'll be left with nothing except apps ported from iOS. At that point, what's the Mac except an extremely overpriced iPad? The implication here is everyone that's a Mac developer like you shares these opinions, that Mac-native software is going away due because developers are being pushed away by these minor hurdles. More likely, native software's going away because web-based technology has gotten better and better, and for most companies it's just more economical to be cross-platform with something like Electron.
      - _qulr 6y ago
        > The implication here is everyone that's a Mac developer like you shares these opinions No, I don't see how that's the implication. It sounds like you do agree with me that native Mac software is going away. We can argue about what exactly is causing that, but I'm not sure how Mac developer opinions are directly relevant.
- bartvk 6y ago
  The conclusion would've been more clear if you had stated that it was coming from frustration. And I get that. I do see that native Mac software is getting more rare, even though more and more Macs are getting sold each year, as a percentage of total desktops/laptops sold. That said, I don't feel like SIP and sandboxing are the main cause of that, and it hurts the platform to say so. You may feel like the platform is enfeebled, dismantled, locked down. I feel that it's growing with the times. (Note that I'm not saying that everything is hunky-dory. Recently I've been experimenting with APFS. I wanted to boot from a self-configured Fusion drive, and had made a volume across an internal and an external disk. It doesn't work, which is fine. But it's not clear why not. No documentation is available, nor has anyone looked into this and blogged about it. I think that's a shame, and I have the feeling that this wasn't always like that.)
  - _qulr 6y ago
    > The conclusion would've been more clear if you had stated that it was coming from frustration. The title of the HN submission is editorialized and misrepresents the purpose of the blog post. Some people were puzzled by a mysterious behavior, and the blog post explained the mystery. The last line was a throwaway comment, because I couldn't resist throwing in a dig at all this stuff. That's all it was. It's my blog, and no offense but I'm not really interested in having people tell me what or how to write on my blog.
    - bartvk 6y ago
      Yeah, that's probably a healthy attitude :) Thanks for writing the post, it was quite informative.
- GekkePrutser 6y ago
  Yes I know how this feels. Same here, I've been using it since 2005 too. I've also seen many comprehensive settings moved to oversimplified On/Off sliders which don't give me the flexibility I need. I'm also worried about where it's going but I do think sandboxing is an inevitable need in this connected world with ever changing exploits. Like the above user said, especially for a web browser. I just wish I as the user could call the shots instead of Apple. Sometimes I just want to do something for good reason but I can't. And yes more and more apps are becoming Catalyst port or Electron (which are mostly crap except for some gems like VS Code). But that's not only a Mac problem, all platforms struggle with this now.

by bartvk 6y ago

mantap 6y ago

Because we can see where this is all headed. SIP is part of a decade-long plan by Apple to transform the Mac into a platform where people's computers are ultimately controlled by Apple and not the users. And if you don't believe it, try to play the latest Fortnite on the Mac. It is impossible to discuss SIP as "just a security feature" and ignore the context. If this were a feature in Linux then we could discuss it as such.

bartvk 6y ago
That may or may not be true, but still it's a good idea for a browser to be supported by OS sandbox features.

_qulr 6y ago

> because changing a setting didn't work That's not why. I've been a Mac developer for 14 years and a Mac user for longer. I've seen the Mac platform enfeebled, dismantled, locked down before my eyes. The conclusion didn't follow from the blog post, it followed from my long-running frustration. Mac software doesn't grow on trees. It needs people like me, who care deeply about this "niche". But people like me are a dying breed. You can have (the illusion of) a "secure" platform, but eventually you'll be left with nothing except apps ported from iOS. At that point, what's the Mac except an extremely overpriced iPad?

machello13 6y ago
There are plenty of Mac developers who don’t have the hard line stance you do. Please, please don’t speak for all of us. Sand boxing has made some things a lot harder or impossible but don’t pretend like the Mac has been incredibly crippled or something. Compared to using Tiger in 2006, the only functional difference is a few more password dialogs and some weirdness like this.
- _qulr 6y ago
  > Please, please don’t speak for all of us. Where do I purport to do that? I speak for myself on my own blog, of course, and also here.
  - machello13 6y ago
    > It needs people like me, who care deeply about this "niche". But people like me are a dying breed. You can have (the illusion of) a "secure" platform, but eventually you'll be left with nothing except apps ported from iOS. At that point, what's the Mac except an extremely overpriced iPad? The implication here is everyone that's a Mac developer like you shares these opinions, that Mac-native software is going away due because developers are being pushed away by these minor hurdles. More likely, native software's going away because web-based technology has gotten better and better, and for most companies it's just more economical to be cross-platform with something like Electron.
    - _qulr 6y ago
      > The implication here is everyone that's a Mac developer like you shares these opinions No, I don't see how that's the implication. It sounds like you do agree with me that native Mac software is going away. We can argue about what exactly is causing that, but I'm not sure how Mac developer opinions are directly relevant.
bartvk 6y ago
The conclusion would've been more clear if you had stated that it was coming from frustration. And I get that. I do see that native Mac software is getting more rare, even though more and more Macs are getting sold each year, as a percentage of total desktops/laptops sold. That said, I don't feel like SIP and sandboxing are the main cause of that, and it hurts the platform to say so. You may feel like the platform is enfeebled, dismantled, locked down. I feel that it's growing with the times. (Note that I'm not saying that everything is hunky-dory. Recently I've been experimenting with APFS. I wanted to boot from a self-configured Fusion drive, and had made a volume across an internal and an external disk. It doesn't work, which is fine. But it's not clear why not. No documentation is available, nor has anyone looked into this and blogged about it. I think that's a shame, and I have the feeling that this wasn't always like that.)
- _qulr 6y ago
  > The conclusion would've been more clear if you had stated that it was coming from frustration. The title of the HN submission is editorialized and misrepresents the purpose of the blog post. Some people were puzzled by a mysterious behavior, and the blog post explained the mystery. The last line was a throwaway comment, because I couldn't resist throwing in a dig at all this stuff. That's all it was. It's my blog, and no offense but I'm not really interested in having people tell me what or how to write on my blog.
  - bartvk 6y ago
    Yeah, that's probably a healthy attitude :) Thanks for writing the post, it was quite informative.
GekkePrutser 6y ago
Yes I know how this feels. Same here, I've been using it since 2005 too. I've also seen many comprehensive settings moved to oversimplified On/Off sliders which don't give me the flexibility I need. I'm also worried about where it's going but I do think sandboxing is an inevitable need in this connected world with ever changing exploits. Like the above user said, especially for a web browser. I just wish I as the user could call the shots instead of Apple. Sometimes I just want to do something for good reason but I can't. And yes more and more apps are becoming Catalyst port or Electron (which are mostly crap except for some gems like VS Code). But that's not only a Mac problem, all platforms struggle with this now.