3 ms·

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the perceived hostility in your posts is accidental. Here are two tips that will help you avoid that uninte

by slg 6y ago

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the perceived hostility in your posts is accidental. Here are two tips that will help you avoid that unintentional impression and will allow you to escape the downvotes you are receiving. Transgender identity has changed a lot over the last several decades. You therefore shouldn't expect someone who lived before that to have used the same vocabulary and labels we use today. You also shouldn't force them into a binary gender bucket. There is a wide variety of transgender identities and it isn't exclusively about going from man to woman or vice versa. When you aren't sure of a person's preferred gender identity and pronouns, you are probably better off using general terms like they/them/their as the Wikipedia article does. You should never use "it" like you did in your first post unless specifically told to do so. It is can be viewed as dehumanizing.

aaron695 6y ago
> You should never use "it" 'It' referrers to the situation, not the person. I changed the grammar a little to try and fix this.
- slg 6y ago
  >There is no reference if it was a man who became a woman or vice versa Maybe that also isn't intentional and is merely poor grammar, but that certainly reads as if you are using "it" to refer to the person.
  - rebuilder 6y ago
    Since we're on a grammar tangent already, as a non-native speaker, I thought "was it a man who did this" was a valid construction. Am I in error?
    - Freak_NL 6y ago
      That is fine, but keep in mind that a valid answer to that question can be “No, it was a cat that did it.”. If you are already sure it was a person and wanted to be specific, you could rephrase that as “Was the person who did this a man?”. (The answer to that might of course be “I don't know, they looked rather androgynous.” or the more down to earth “Dunno. Couldn't tell if it was a bloke or a gal.”.)
    - Rotten194 6y ago
      I wrote a more detailed answer to GP: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24576616 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24576616, but basically: yes that's totally natural, but in edited writing / speech sometimes should be avoided for clarity reasons. But I didn't blink twice at the comment myself.
  - Rotten194 6y ago
    I read it as "it" being the situation. e.g., "was it a child who painted this?" it isn't bad grammar, though you could argue it's poor writing because it's confusing. it's using a feature of english called it-extraposition. some examples here: https://www1.icsi.berkeley.edu/~kay/bcg/extrap.html https://www1.icsi.berkeley.edu/~kay/bcg/extrap.html basically, it-xp lets you delay a constituent in certain circumstances using "it". sometimes this is required to make a sentence grammatical. "(What to do next) is not clear" "It is not clear (what to do next)" *"Was (who painted this) a child?" "Was it a child (who painted this)?" We can combine this feature with clefting the end of the sentence to make something that seems to refer to a person by "it", but actually refers to an elided constituent: Discourse: "I don't know the gender of the writer" R1: *"Was (who wrote this) a man?" (can't have wh-phrase here, needs it-xp) R2: "Was it a man (who wrote this)?" (OK, but the last part is redundant. Discourse already includes we are talking about a writer. Grice's maxims suggest we will usually drop it.) R3: "Was it a man?" (looks weird, but sounds perfectly normal in context) I'm a linguist / syntactician by training, but also nonbinary and use they/them, so I have some skin in this game. I think the GP was being obtuse, maybe purposely, but not malicious.
    - slg 6y ago
      Fair enough. It might have been the usage combined with the rest of that user's posts, which seemed to have an aggressive tone, that caused me to read it the way I did. I will also say it is worth the tiny bit of extra effort to make pronoun use clear when dealing with members of the trans people. That community already faces so many challenges, accidentally offending them with our laziness is a mistake we shouldn't make.

by slg 6y ago

aaron695 6y ago

> You should never use "it" 'It' referrers to the situation, not the person. I changed the grammar a little to try and fix this.

slg 6y ago
>There is no reference if it was a man who became a woman or vice versa Maybe that also isn't intentional and is merely poor grammar, but that certainly reads as if you are using "it" to refer to the person.
- rebuilder 6y ago
  Since we're on a grammar tangent already, as a non-native speaker, I thought "was it a man who did this" was a valid construction. Am I in error?
  - Freak_NL 6y ago
    That is fine, but keep in mind that a valid answer to that question can be “No, it was a cat that did it.”. If you are already sure it was a person and wanted to be specific, you could rephrase that as “Was the person who did this a man?”. (The answer to that might of course be “I don't know, they looked rather androgynous.” or the more down to earth “Dunno. Couldn't tell if it was a bloke or a gal.”.)
  - Rotten194 6y ago
    I wrote a more detailed answer to GP: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24576616 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24576616, but basically: yes that's totally natural, but in edited writing / speech sometimes should be avoided for clarity reasons. But I didn't blink twice at the comment myself.
- Rotten194 6y ago
  I read it as "it" being the situation. e.g., "was it a child who painted this?" it isn't bad grammar, though you could argue it's poor writing because it's confusing. it's using a feature of english called it-extraposition. some examples here: https://www1.icsi.berkeley.edu/~kay/bcg/extrap.html https://www1.icsi.berkeley.edu/~kay/bcg/extrap.html basically, it-xp lets you delay a constituent in certain circumstances using "it". sometimes this is required to make a sentence grammatical. "(What to do next) is not clear" "It is not clear (what to do next)" *"Was (who painted this) a child?" "Was it a child (who painted this)?" We can combine this feature with clefting the end of the sentence to make something that seems to refer to a person by "it", but actually refers to an elided constituent: Discourse: "I don't know the gender of the writer" R1: *"Was (who wrote this) a man?" (can't have wh-phrase here, needs it-xp) R2: "Was it a man (who wrote this)?" (OK, but the last part is redundant. Discourse already includes we are talking about a writer. Grice's maxims suggest we will usually drop it.) R3: "Was it a man?" (looks weird, but sounds perfectly normal in context) I'm a linguist / syntactician by training, but also nonbinary and use they/them, so I have some skin in this game. I think the GP was being obtuse, maybe purposely, but not malicious.
  - slg 6y ago
    Fair enough. It might have been the usage combined with the rest of that user's posts, which seemed to have an aggressive tone, that caused me to read it the way I did. I will also say it is worth the tiny bit of extra effort to make pronoun use clear when dealing with members of the trans people. That community already faces so many challenges, accidentally offending them with our laziness is a mistake we shouldn't make.