4 ms·

I don't want to sound like a nitpicker, but "basic understanding" and "facts" are two very different things: facts are facts. Their understanding has more to do

I don't want to sound like a nitpicker, but "basic understanding" and "facts" are two very different things: facts are facts. Their understanding has more to do with the interpretation. And if we all agree on interpretation of the facts, then cementing the society becomes too easy of a task.

tasogare 6y ago
It’s especially egregious in this case with 1/3 of examples being extremely politically oriented (the so-called systemic racism). One of the big issue is when people start thinking their fantasies are reality and will distort every fact to fit in, instead of critically think that they may, in fact, be wrong.
- rtkwe 6y ago
  This is a fine example of what I mean. To me, from the left, there's very little room to question the existence of systematic racism. [0] From my perspective it flows pretty cleanly from several pretty solid facts. Black people were literally property for several hundred years. Once that ended there were explicitly racist laws and actions to keep black people out of any kind of economic or political power. [1] Maybe most importantly redlining kept black people out of home loans during one of the greatest periods of wealth growth in the US during the postwar boom. Combine this with the fact that poor neighborhoods are more polluted, [2] have worse schools, poor parents have less time to devote to tutoring their kids, etc and we get a self reinforcing system. This system shits on all poor people but history has put a thumb on the scale of who wound up starting where. Given a much longer time span this may sort itself out naturally but with the way wealth compounds in capitalism there are also countervailing forces. [0] The definition gets muddied a lot so I'll define myself here. Systematic racism is the concept that the interlocking /system/ of the government and economy have a racially biased outcome, ie it's racist, hence systematic racism. Importantly it's not that this system is necessarily currently intentional, though personally for me, not addressing the problem does feel like you get some blame for it's continued existence. [1] Jim Crow laws, the Tulsa Race Massacre, the Wilmington insurrection of 1898 (look this one up in particular), the list is long and quite consistent. [2] Which studies show has deleterious effects on educational performance. Pulling one random study out: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6140474/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6140474/
  - AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
    I think noone in their sane mind will deny that racism does exist. This is a fact and there are scientific ways to check it. The questions are: how much does racism contributes to poverty among black people? Is it the only reason? Is it the main reason? Are there any other reasons? If these reasons are unpleasant (pick your favorite here) will we still be able to freely discuss them? If racism is not the reason (let's imagine for a moment), how do we find it out? If racism is the reason, then which policies are effective in fighting it and which are not? Why white-to-black unemployment ratio in conservative Alabama is the same as in progressive New Jersey? Why both New York and Texas do better? Why? Why? Why?
    - vixen99 6y ago
      Other reasons? http://www.tsowell.com/Discrimination2.html http://www.tsowell.com/Discrimination2.html '...challenges the very foundation of assumptions on which the prevailing “social justice” vision is based. The first two chapters of Discrimination and Disparities present a new framework of analysis, and back it up with empirical evidence from around the world, before proceeding to demonstrate why and how so much of the "social justice" vision is a house of cards.'
  - luckylion 6y ago
    An issue I see with that line of thinking is that Turks in Germany are also a lot poorer than native Germans, get lower education and rely on welfare a lot more, commit more crimes etc. Yet they immigrated barely 60 years ago and were immigrating as workers, not refugees. Turks have never been enslaved (quite the contrary, they've been slave-owners for much of their history), there were no racist laws against Turks, yet they still ended up in a very similar place. That suggests that there might be different reasons why groups are less successful, and might suggest that it's not racism. That the results in different African American groups are very different also makes the simple narrative of "it's because of racism" hard to follow, I think.
    - notahacker 6y ago
      I don't think many Germans would argue that Turkish immigrants and their descendants have not been subject to significant degrees of racism and discrimination. It's particularly hard to claim with a straight face that the cultural similarities between between Turkish Germans and African Americans are much more obvious...
blhack 6y ago
You're in a car. The speedometer reads 50mph. How fast are you going?
- Chris2048 6y ago
  You're in a rocket-ship, the speedometer reads 0.5c (half-lightspeed); How fast are you going? If you understand you'll ask "from what frame of reference?"
  - AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
    I wonder... If there were such a speedometer what would it use as a reference in real life? Earth? Sun? Sag A?
    - rtkwe 6y ago
      Most useful in space depends a lot on what you're doing at the time. Docking with small separation? Velocity relative to target. Orbiting something? speed relative to that body. Traveling between stars? Tougher but most likely relative velocity towards your target since your path is going to be relatively linear?
  - icedistilled 6y ago
    But you can easily answer "I'm going 0.5c from the frame of reference the speedometer uses"
    - Chris2048 6y ago
      But the point is you need to understand what speed is.
- klyrs 6y ago
  50, plus or minus a bit depending on environmental conditions, tire wear, and speedometer calibration, relative to the surface you're driving on.

tasogare 6y ago

It’s especially egregious in this case with 1/3 of examples being extremely politically oriented (the so-called systemic racism). One of the big issue is when people start thinking their fantasies are reality and will distort every fact to fit in, instead of critically think that they may, in fact, be wrong.

rtkwe 6y ago
This is a fine example of what I mean. To me, from the left, there's very little room to question the existence of systematic racism. [0] From my perspective it flows pretty cleanly from several pretty solid facts. Black people were literally property for several hundred years. Once that ended there were explicitly racist laws and actions to keep black people out of any kind of economic or political power. [1] Maybe most importantly redlining kept black people out of home loans during one of the greatest periods of wealth growth in the US during the postwar boom. Combine this with the fact that poor neighborhoods are more polluted, [2] have worse schools, poor parents have less time to devote to tutoring their kids, etc and we get a self reinforcing system. This system shits on all poor people but history has put a thumb on the scale of who wound up starting where. Given a much longer time span this may sort itself out naturally but with the way wealth compounds in capitalism there are also countervailing forces. [0] The definition gets muddied a lot so I'll define myself here. Systematic racism is the concept that the interlocking /system/ of the government and economy have a racially biased outcome, ie it's racist, hence systematic racism. Importantly it's not that this system is necessarily currently intentional, though personally for me, not addressing the problem does feel like you get some blame for it's continued existence. [1] Jim Crow laws, the Tulsa Race Massacre, the Wilmington insurrection of 1898 (look this one up in particular), the list is long and quite consistent. [2] Which studies show has deleterious effects on educational performance. Pulling one random study out: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6140474/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6140474/
- AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
  I think noone in their sane mind will deny that racism does exist. This is a fact and there are scientific ways to check it. The questions are: how much does racism contributes to poverty among black people? Is it the only reason? Is it the main reason? Are there any other reasons? If these reasons are unpleasant (pick your favorite here) will we still be able to freely discuss them? If racism is not the reason (let's imagine for a moment), how do we find it out? If racism is the reason, then which policies are effective in fighting it and which are not? Why white-to-black unemployment ratio in conservative Alabama is the same as in progressive New Jersey? Why both New York and Texas do better? Why? Why? Why?
  - vixen99 6y ago
    Other reasons? http://www.tsowell.com/Discrimination2.html http://www.tsowell.com/Discrimination2.html '...challenges the very foundation of assumptions on which the prevailing “social justice” vision is based. The first two chapters of Discrimination and Disparities present a new framework of analysis, and back it up with empirical evidence from around the world, before proceeding to demonstrate why and how so much of the "social justice" vision is a house of cards.'
- luckylion 6y ago
  An issue I see with that line of thinking is that Turks in Germany are also a lot poorer than native Germans, get lower education and rely on welfare a lot more, commit more crimes etc. Yet they immigrated barely 60 years ago and were immigrating as workers, not refugees. Turks have never been enslaved (quite the contrary, they've been slave-owners for much of their history), there were no racist laws against Turks, yet they still ended up in a very similar place. That suggests that there might be different reasons why groups are less successful, and might suggest that it's not racism. That the results in different African American groups are very different also makes the simple narrative of "it's because of racism" hard to follow, I think.
  - notahacker 6y ago
    I don't think many Germans would argue that Turkish immigrants and their descendants have not been subject to significant degrees of racism and discrimination. It's particularly hard to claim with a straight face that the cultural similarities between between Turkish Germans and African Americans are much more obvious...

blhack 6y ago

You're in a car. The speedometer reads 50mph. How fast are you going?

Chris2048 6y ago
You're in a rocket-ship, the speedometer reads 0.5c (half-lightspeed); How fast are you going? If you understand you'll ask "from what frame of reference?"
- AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
  I wonder... If there were such a speedometer what would it use as a reference in real life? Earth? Sun? Sag A?
  - rtkwe 6y ago
    Most useful in space depends a lot on what you're doing at the time. Docking with small separation? Velocity relative to target. Orbiting something? speed relative to that body. Traveling between stars? Tougher but most likely relative velocity towards your target since your path is going to be relatively linear?
- icedistilled 6y ago
  But you can easily answer "I'm going 0.5c from the frame of reference the speedometer uses"
  - Chris2048 6y ago
    But the point is you need to understand what speed is.
klyrs 6y ago
50, plus or minus a bit depending on environmental conditions, tire wear, and speedometer calibration, relative to the surface you're driving on.