5 ms·

Mechanical systems generally have well established failure modes, frequently related to parts wearing out with use. Often these failures can be predicted by war

Mechanical systems generally have well established failure modes, frequently related to parts wearing out with use. Often these failures can be predicted by warning signs or history of use. Networked software systems generally have completely unknown and unpredictable failure modes. Do you really want important infrastructure like your automobile dependent on networked software?

andyfleming 6y ago
Though the timing may be unpredictable the failure mode seems clear.
epistasis 6y ago
The regular NFC card still works fine. When I took delivery of my car, the guy told me to just always keep the NFC card in my wallet. Honestly I thought it was more likely that I would have a dead phone than Tesla would have a network outage, particularly one lasting multiple hours, but I guess my phone charging is more reliable than their network configs. Given how unreliable and flaky I am, it's pretty damning of Tesla's technical chops.
mtviewdave 6y ago
The key card still works, as I would expect. The car isn't dependent upon network infrastructure; an optional convenience is dependent upon it. You can operate a Tesla fully without installing the Tesla app. As a comparison, my last car was a BMW. For that car, I had key fobs. I always had to take one of these key fobs in order to unlock and use the car. So going out, I would have one key with which I could operate the car. Now, because I always carry the key card in my wallet, and I always have my phone, I always have _two_ keys with me. This isn't worse than having only one key, even if one of the keys is failing today due to an internet outage. Essentially, I'm experiencing the worst case scenario right now, which is that I'm exactly the same situation as when I had my BMW. It's annoying (and as an iOS dev, I Have Questions on how the app came to be architected such that a network outage erases the app's settings). But I'm not worse off
- kenhwang 6y ago
  Is it standard practice to carry around the keycard? Most owners I know don't bother. So this could potentially strand them unexpectedly but I suppose that's the same for any other car if you lose your keys (but at least not losing your physical keys is in your control).
  - xeromal 6y ago
    Yeah, they're credit card sized so I usually carry one in my wallet. Mostly to give to a valet if I need it. Some people have melted them down into fun key chain fogs. My gf has it as a ring.
    - twiceaday 6y ago
      I am a fan of a minimal wallet. I don't carry stuff I can do with my phone.
      - xeromal 6y ago
        The card is a millimeter thick. It will fit in a minimalist wallet.
        wlesieutre 6y ago
        You can say that about 20 different cards individually and suddenly your minimal wallet isn't very minimal anymore But since Tesla's app can spontaneously stop working, might be worth sucking it up and carrying the card anyway
        xeromal 6y ago
        For sure, IDK if my dad broke me, but I always try to have a backup for everything. Keys included.
        6y ago
PinguTS 6y ago
The problem is even more complex. For most people it is just the app right now. But what people do not realize is, that the devices networked in the car itself are trusting each other by some means of certificates. These certificates needs to be renewed regualry. If there servers are becoming unavailable for a longer time while the certificates expire, the connected device will not trust each other and will refuse to work.
- bdamm 6y ago
  Can you cite any specific parts that are handshaking via certificates that need renewal? In many cases device authentication is turning towards certificates that don't expire, and I'm unaware of any certificate renewal cases inside a Tesla. If they are there, I'd love to know about them.
  - NotSammyHagar 6y ago
    I suppose you wouldn't be able to update the os. But the car is just fine without network access. You can unlock with key, charge it, etc. It doesn't require network connections in any way. It has downloaded maps. Unlike say your BMW, your car maps get updated periodically over the internet.
Whatarethese 6y ago
Your power grid runs on networked software. The key is redundancy.
kelnos 6y ago
> Do you really want important infrastructure like your automobile dependent on networked software? Is the automobile actually dependent on this infrastructure, or does that infra just provide some nice perks and extra features? If the car will still lock, unlock, drive, and refuel -- indefinitely -- without the network components, then I wouldn't consider it dependent on the network. Of course, when adding extra features, we should strive to only make them dependent on the network if they truly require the network as a part of their basic premise. I suspect the Tesla has some extra features that could work fine without the network, but are probably broken because of this, and that's... not great.
- NotSammyHagar 6y ago
  Your idea is correct, the network access is optional. Everything works, it even has downloaded maps. You can't remotely unlock or lock via phone when the net is down. But your keyfob will just work. I checked just now and I can seemingly do everything at the moment with the app...
cesarb 6y ago
> Networked software systems generally have completely unknown and unpredictable failure modes. "A distributed system is one in which the failure of a computer you didn't even know existed can render your own computer unusable." -- Leslie Lamport, 1987 (https://lamport.azurewebsites.net/pubs/distributed-system.txt https://lamport.azurewebsites.net/pubs/distributed-system.tx...)

andyfleming 6y ago

Though the timing may be unpredictable the failure mode seems clear.

epistasis 6y ago

The regular NFC card still works fine. When I took delivery of my car, the guy told me to just always keep the NFC card in my wallet. Honestly I thought it was more likely that I would have a dead phone than Tesla would have a network outage, particularly one lasting multiple hours, but I guess my phone charging is more reliable than their network configs. Given how unreliable and flaky I am, it's pretty damning of Tesla's technical chops.

mtviewdave 6y ago

The key card still works, as I would expect. The car isn't dependent upon network infrastructure; an optional convenience is dependent upon it. You can operate a Tesla fully without installing the Tesla app. As a comparison, my last car was a BMW. For that car, I had key fobs. I always had to take one of these key fobs in order to unlock and use the car. So going out, I would have one key with which I could operate the car. Now, because I always carry the key card in my wallet, and I always have my phone, I always have _two_ keys with me. This isn't worse than having only one key, even if one of the keys is failing today due to an internet outage. Essentially, I'm experiencing the worst case scenario right now, which is that I'm exactly the same situation as when I had my BMW. It's annoying (and as an iOS dev, I Have Questions on how the app came to be architected such that a network outage erases the app's settings). But I'm not worse off

kenhwang 6y ago
Is it standard practice to carry around the keycard? Most owners I know don't bother. So this could potentially strand them unexpectedly but I suppose that's the same for any other car if you lose your keys (but at least not losing your physical keys is in your control).
- xeromal 6y ago
  Yeah, they're credit card sized so I usually carry one in my wallet. Mostly to give to a valet if I need it. Some people have melted them down into fun key chain fogs. My gf has it as a ring.
  - twiceaday 6y ago
    I am a fan of a minimal wallet. I don't carry stuff I can do with my phone.
    - xeromal 6y ago
      The card is a millimeter thick. It will fit in a minimalist wallet.
      - wlesieutre 6y ago
        You can say that about 20 different cards individually and suddenly your minimal wallet isn't very minimal anymore But since Tesla's app can spontaneously stop working, might be worth sucking it up and carrying the card anyway
        xeromal 6y ago
        For sure, IDK if my dad broke me, but I always try to have a backup for everything. Keys included.
        6y ago

PinguTS 6y ago

The problem is even more complex. For most people it is just the app right now. But what people do not realize is, that the devices networked in the car itself are trusting each other by some means of certificates. These certificates needs to be renewed regualry. If there servers are becoming unavailable for a longer time while the certificates expire, the connected device will not trust each other and will refuse to work.

bdamm 6y ago
Can you cite any specific parts that are handshaking via certificates that need renewal? In many cases device authentication is turning towards certificates that don't expire, and I'm unaware of any certificate renewal cases inside a Tesla. If they are there, I'd love to know about them.
- NotSammyHagar 6y ago
  I suppose you wouldn't be able to update the os. But the car is just fine without network access. You can unlock with key, charge it, etc. It doesn't require network connections in any way. It has downloaded maps. Unlike say your BMW, your car maps get updated periodically over the internet.

Whatarethese 6y ago

Your power grid runs on networked software. The key is redundancy.

kelnos 6y ago

> Do you really want important infrastructure like your automobile dependent on networked software? Is the automobile actually dependent on this infrastructure, or does that infra just provide some nice perks and extra features? If the car will still lock, unlock, drive, and refuel -- indefinitely -- without the network components, then I wouldn't consider it dependent on the network. Of course, when adding extra features, we should strive to only make them dependent on the network if they truly require the network as a part of their basic premise. I suspect the Tesla has some extra features that could work fine without the network, but are probably broken because of this, and that's... not great.

NotSammyHagar 6y ago
Your idea is correct, the network access is optional. Everything works, it even has downloaded maps. You can't remotely unlock or lock via phone when the net is down. But your keyfob will just work. I checked just now and I can seemingly do everything at the moment with the app...

cesarb 6y ago

> Networked software systems generally have completely unknown and unpredictable failure modes. "A distributed system is one in which the failure of a computer you didn't even know existed can render your own computer unusable." -- Leslie Lamport, 1987 (https://lamport.azurewebsites.net/pubs/distributed-system.txt https://lamport.azurewebsites.net/pubs/distributed-system.tx...)