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> Conservatives have raced so quickly to the right ... I'd like to suggest that we use care with the term "conservative". Is it possible that the parent post c

> Conservatives have raced so quickly to the right ... I'd like to suggest that we use care with the term "conservative". Is it possible that the parent post conflates "conservative" with "Republican"? I'm no authority on the U.S. Republic party, but I know it's sometimes said that that party has shifted hard to "the right". I could believe that's true, which would line up with the parent post. However, some of my own political views would be considered "conservative" in the traditional sense, and I don't think they've undergone a hard shift to the right.

tstrimple 6y ago
Where is this wealth of principled conservatives people keep pretending exist, but are no where to be seen in politics or political discussions? Like it or not, Republicans are the "conservative" party and around 95% of them support Trump and the vast majority of them consider themselves to be conservatives. Attempts from conservatives to distance themselves from the Republican party just reek of No true Scotsman.
- DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
  > Like it or not, Republicans are the "conservative" party and around 95% of them support Trump and the vast majority of them consider themselves to be conservatives. I apologize but I may be missing your point. In the GP, I was suggesting that the term "conservative" is being used in competing ways by different groups, and we should be clear on that. Are you saying that it's not worth making such a distinction, because the vast, vast majority of the public use the term "conservative" to mean "whatever the Republican party's platform is"?
  - tstrimple 6y ago
    If the vast majority of the public use the term conservative to mean Republican, that's pretty much what the words mean. That's how language works. Conservatives of today have the same hallmarks as the original conservatives. It's little to nothing to do with sound fiscal policy or responsible spending or size of government and everything to do with maintaining social hierarchies. From that perspective, Trump supporters are definitely conservative.
    - DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
      > That's how language works. I agree. It sounds like we have disagreeing estimates regarding how popular each definition is. We may be at an impasse on this, unless you know of a good source of reliable data for it.
Brendinooo 6y ago
Studies have shown that rank-and-file Democrats have moved leftward much more than rank-and-file Republicans have moved rightward[0], but at least one study shows that Republican representatives have tacked rightward much more dramatically[1]. [0]: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/interactives/political-polarization-1994-2017/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/interactives/political-... [1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/02/this-astonishing-chart-shows-how-republicans-are-an-endangered-species/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/02/this-...
- nemothekid 6y ago
  I've seen [0] before and you can sort of explain [0] and [1] by adjusting the frame of reference. As [0] shows, Republicans have pretty much been unmoved for 30 years. At first view you might conclude it's democrats who are moving right, but if you consider the rest of the 1st world as some kind of "average", I think you would find Republicans are moving farther right. Issues like health care, social safety nets, and worker protections are pretty much close to "center" in Europe, but are "left" in the US. One could argue Republicans moved much father rightward of the 1st world mean than democrats have, which reconciles with [1] - in order to stay mostly politically unchanged after 30 years you must be more and more steadfast.
- wahern 6y ago
  See also https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/interactives/party-id-trend/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/interactives/party-id-t... Democrats have always outnumbered Republicans, but the gap was much wider mid-century. The gap has narrowed considerably, but mostly because of declining Democratic party affiliation. Independents now outnumber Democrats.

tstrimple 6y ago

Where is this wealth of principled conservatives people keep pretending exist, but are no where to be seen in politics or political discussions? Like it or not, Republicans are the "conservative" party and around 95% of them support Trump and the vast majority of them consider themselves to be conservatives. Attempts from conservatives to distance themselves from the Republican party just reek of No true Scotsman.

DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
> Like it or not, Republicans are the "conservative" party and around 95% of them support Trump and the vast majority of them consider themselves to be conservatives. I apologize but I may be missing your point. In the GP, I was suggesting that the term "conservative" is being used in competing ways by different groups, and we should be clear on that. Are you saying that it's not worth making such a distinction, because the vast, vast majority of the public use the term "conservative" to mean "whatever the Republican party's platform is"?
- tstrimple 6y ago
  If the vast majority of the public use the term conservative to mean Republican, that's pretty much what the words mean. That's how language works. Conservatives of today have the same hallmarks as the original conservatives. It's little to nothing to do with sound fiscal policy or responsible spending or size of government and everything to do with maintaining social hierarchies. From that perspective, Trump supporters are definitely conservative.
  - DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
    > That's how language works. I agree. It sounds like we have disagreeing estimates regarding how popular each definition is. We may be at an impasse on this, unless you know of a good source of reliable data for it.

Brendinooo 6y ago

Studies have shown that rank-and-file Democrats have moved leftward much more than rank-and-file Republicans have moved rightward[0], but at least one study shows that Republican representatives have tacked rightward much more dramatically[1]. [0]: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/interactives/political-polarization-1994-2017/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/interactives/political-... [1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/02/this-astonishing-chart-shows-how-republicans-are-an-endangered-species/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/02/this-...

nemothekid 6y ago
I've seen [0] before and you can sort of explain [0] and [1] by adjusting the frame of reference. As [0] shows, Republicans have pretty much been unmoved for 30 years. At first view you might conclude it's democrats who are moving right, but if you consider the rest of the 1st world as some kind of "average", I think you would find Republicans are moving farther right. Issues like health care, social safety nets, and worker protections are pretty much close to "center" in Europe, but are "left" in the US. One could argue Republicans moved much father rightward of the 1st world mean than democrats have, which reconciles with [1] - in order to stay mostly politically unchanged after 30 years you must be more and more steadfast.
wahern 6y ago
See also https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/interactives/party-id-trend/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/interactives/party-id-t... Democrats have always outnumbered Republicans, but the gap was much wider mid-century. The gap has narrowed considerably, but mostly because of declining Democratic party affiliation. Independents now outnumber Democrats.