3 ms·

Would mass production of room temperature superconductors (effectively science fiction right now I believe) be as game changing for processing power as it seems

by foota 6y ago

Would mass production of room temperature superconductors (effectively science fiction right now I believe) be as game changing for processing power as it seems by eliminating heat issues?

formerly_proven 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_computing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_computing Apparently. Whole article sounds like science-fiction. 500x efficiency increase while scaling operating frequencies 250x.
- jcranmer 6y ago
  Drilling down into the sources suggests that the top-level claims are a bit of a reach: > Specifically, while superconducting technology eliminates the cost of moving bits within the superconducting domain, the cost of transferring data from the outside into the superconducting domain does dissipate energy at 4 K. Consequently, superconducting is expected to perform poorly on, for example, big data applications where the bulk of data is streamed from the outside into the processor. What is more, the energy cost of logic in superconducting circuits is expected to be similar to that of CMOS.
  - Whirl 6y ago
    This is true for now. The IARPA SuperCables program exists to tackle this specific problem. Probably the solution will require converting microwave pulses into optical frequencies to get the signals out of the cold spaces with fiber-optic infrastructure. If you read the broad agency announcement, they even have explicit energy dissipation targets (per bit). I think it’s something like attoJoules or femtoJoules? https://www.iarpa.gov/index.php/research-programs/supercables/supercables-baa https://www.iarpa.gov/index.php/research-programs/supercable...
  - rsfern 6y ago
    You seem to be quoting [0]. This isn't really my area of expertise, but the 4K referenced here seems to be the operating temperature. I imagine the thermodynamics of moving data around changes if you have room-temperature superconducting materials and aren't constrained to cryogenic computing, but I am not really sure what the impact would be on mitigating (or exacerbating) this kind of data transfer cost. [0]: https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1021.1180&rep=rep1&type=pdf https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.10...
ISL 6y ago
Yes. It would be transformative in ways both readily imagined and yet to be imagined. It isn't entirely sunshine and rainbows, as one must take care to remain below the material's critical field for it to remain superconducting, but beyond that, much of what a thoughtful freshman-physics student might dream up is likely to be possible. Such a discovery would revolutionize a lot more than power-transmission. One of the first places it would have impact is in MRI, where magnet-cooling is a major expense. The ripple effects of such a discovery would be very fast, just as high-Tc was in 1986/1987. Even if the material is a strange one, everyone would race to find a way to use it. Edit: First applications might probably appear in situations that can use small quantities of the material -- building great filters in circuits/ICs would require minimal material-handling R&D.
sliken 6y ago
Depends on quite a bit more than the temperature. What about the cost? Max power handling? Maximum magnetic flux? Sure if it's cheap you could do fun things like have a solar powered grid so what any sunny place on earth could provide power planet wide. Thus any natural peaks and valleys world wide would mostly average out. That way instead of designing your power grid for the worst case (something like sunset of the hottest day of the year) you can balance the northern hemisphere with the southern (with generally opposite weather). It also could potentially make for "perfect" batteries, which could revolutionize various industries. Unfortunately zero resistance does not imply infinite power density.
- mrfusion 6y ago
  I’ve never been able to find what the power density would be on a superconducting coil battery.
  - peterwoerner 6y ago
    For YBCO SMES, it is quite high on par with ultra-capacitors.
  - mrfusion 6y ago
    I wonder what energy density would look like for a room temperature sc if you didn’t need all the cooling equipment? Or do they disregard that in your figure?

by foota 6y ago

Would mass production of room temperature superconductors (effectively science fiction right now I believe) be as game changing for processing power as it seems by eliminating heat issues?

formerly_proven 6y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_computing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_computing Apparently. Whole article sounds like science-fiction. 500x efficiency increase while scaling operating frequencies 250x.

jcranmer 6y ago
Drilling down into the sources suggests that the top-level claims are a bit of a reach: > Specifically, while superconducting technology eliminates the cost of moving bits within the superconducting domain, the cost of transferring data from the outside into the superconducting domain does dissipate energy at 4 K. Consequently, superconducting is expected to perform poorly on, for example, big data applications where the bulk of data is streamed from the outside into the processor. What is more, the energy cost of logic in superconducting circuits is expected to be similar to that of CMOS.
- Whirl 6y ago
  This is true for now. The IARPA SuperCables program exists to tackle this specific problem. Probably the solution will require converting microwave pulses into optical frequencies to get the signals out of the cold spaces with fiber-optic infrastructure. If you read the broad agency announcement, they even have explicit energy dissipation targets (per bit). I think it’s something like attoJoules or femtoJoules? https://www.iarpa.gov/index.php/research-programs/supercables/supercables-baa https://www.iarpa.gov/index.php/research-programs/supercable...
- rsfern 6y ago
  You seem to be quoting [0]. This isn't really my area of expertise, but the 4K referenced here seems to be the operating temperature. I imagine the thermodynamics of moving data around changes if you have room-temperature superconducting materials and aren't constrained to cryogenic computing, but I am not really sure what the impact would be on mitigating (or exacerbating) this kind of data transfer cost. [0]: https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1021.1180&rep=rep1&type=pdf https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.10...

ISL 6y ago

Yes. It would be transformative in ways both readily imagined and yet to be imagined. It isn't entirely sunshine and rainbows, as one must take care to remain below the material's critical field for it to remain superconducting, but beyond that, much of what a thoughtful freshman-physics student might dream up is likely to be possible. Such a discovery would revolutionize a lot more than power-transmission. One of the first places it would have impact is in MRI, where magnet-cooling is a major expense. The ripple effects of such a discovery would be very fast, just as high-Tc was in 1986/1987. Even if the material is a strange one, everyone would race to find a way to use it. Edit: First applications might probably appear in situations that can use small quantities of the material -- building great filters in circuits/ICs would require minimal material-handling R&D.

sliken 6y ago

Depends on quite a bit more than the temperature. What about the cost? Max power handling? Maximum magnetic flux? Sure if it's cheap you could do fun things like have a solar powered grid so what any sunny place on earth could provide power planet wide. Thus any natural peaks and valleys world wide would mostly average out. That way instead of designing your power grid for the worst case (something like sunset of the hottest day of the year) you can balance the northern hemisphere with the southern (with generally opposite weather). It also could potentially make for "perfect" batteries, which could revolutionize various industries. Unfortunately zero resistance does not imply infinite power density.

mrfusion 6y ago
I’ve never been able to find what the power density would be on a superconducting coil battery.
- peterwoerner 6y ago
  For YBCO SMES, it is quite high on par with ultra-capacitors.
- mrfusion 6y ago
  I wonder what energy density would look like for a room temperature sc if you didn’t need all the cooling equipment? Or do they disregard that in your figure?