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One of the qualities of batteries in cars is a place to store energy from regenerative braking. The best numbers for miles per charge are coming from the tech l

One of the qualities of batteries in cars is a place to store energy from regenerative braking. The best numbers for miles per charge are coming from the tech leader in the space (Tesla). The system of storing generated energy is important.

WorldMaker 6y ago
Absolutely, which is why Toyota's Mirai, the last living (why, Toyota, why?) attempt at a Hydrogen fuel cell car still carries the weight of Lithium Ion battery in addition to the fuel cell. I think at this point it seems pretty clear that if you have to cart around a Lithium Ion battery anyway you might as well go all in on an EV. I think it seems pretty clear that the Mirai is just a badly efficient EV with a strange battery mix and a very weird, very confusing, very expensive and hard to find "plug". I think that writing is well enough on the wall that everyone but Toyota seems to agree, and poor Toyota what are they even doing at this point, who knows.
- shawndrost 6y ago
  I also think the Mirai is a dead end, but here are some things that might interest you: * The energy density (kWh/kg) of the Mirai fuel cell system (stack, tank, etc) is probably 2x or more than its battery. Replacing it with a battery would probably cut range substantially. * New car ramp-ups are weirder than I would've guessed, even when they're not pioneering a new fuel source and infrastructure. Eg the Prius took 8 years to break 50k sales per year, and it was a money-losing or breakeven proposition throughout that entire period. Later, of course, it became a breakout success story. [1] * If fuel cells eventually matter (eg for heavy-duty applications), the Mirai could fail as a vehicle while succeeding as an R&D testbed. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius
  - WorldMaker 6y ago
    > The energy density (kWh/kg) of the Mirai fuel cell system (stack, tank, etc) is probably 2x or more than its battery. Replacing it with a battery would probably cut range substantially. I'm not sure how much that matters practically, however. The Toyota Mirai has an EPA estimated range of 312 miles and a base Tesla Model 3 is only a few miles shorter at 299 EPA estimated miles. They appear to be about the same size, though admittedly the Model 3 weighs 20X as much, if quickly searched numbers are correct. Consumers likely don't care about the weight difference other than how it impacts handling (and no one is complaining about the Model 3's handling) and indirectly felt impacts on road maintenance costs (and no one is paying attention to that at all, at least not right now in SUV/light truck-loving America). (ETA: And it doesn't look like the weight scales the way that the size does in a comparable way to battery weight, density aside, and that Toyota can't just double/triple the tank size and blow EVs out of the water range-wise weight for weight or they would have already done so.) > If fuel cells eventually matter (eg for heavy-duty applications), the Mirai could fail as a vehicle while succeeding as an R&D testbed. That almost sounds like a valid reason for the Mirai to continue to exist. Certainly if you are a heavy-duty industrial user of Hydrogen such as a mining company using Hydrogen to replace diesel mining equipment, it might makes sense to have your support fleet of vehicles in/around your mines also capable of using the same Hydrogen infrastructure. That's looking likely to be a small corporate niche at best, so I'm still not sure that it makes sense in 2020 for Toyota to sell the Mirai as a consumer vehicle, but yes maybe calling it a gloom and doom for Toyota to be doing so is a bit strong.
    - ggreer 6y ago
      The curb weight of the Toyota Mirai is 4,075lbs. The Model 3 is 3,552-4,100lbs depending on the configuration. As you noted, range is similar. What's very different is performance. The Mirai goes from 0-60mph in 9 seconds. The slowest Model 3 does it in 5.6 seconds. The fastest Model 3 gets to 60mph in 3.2 seconds. The Toyota's acceleration is limited by the power output of the fuel cell. Its maximum output is 114kW or 153hp. The Tesla's battery can output over 350kW, allowing it to drive much more powerful motors.
- Hypx 6y ago
  Read about the Hyundai Nexo and Honda Clarity. Far more companies are pursuing hydrogen than you think.
  - WorldMaker 6y ago
    That's fair, I was unaware of the Nexo entirely and that the Clarity offered a Hydrogen version (in part because I'm among the vast majority of the US with no Hydrogen infrastructure and no attempts to bother selling it). That said, both Hyundai and Honda are clearly invested enough in full/proper EVs that these models especially feel like hedges/"compliance cars", versus Toyota that still hasn't seemed to commit to full EVs and still talks about the Mirai as if it were more than a hedge and was still the prime bet the company was making, which yes I think it an increasingly weird position in 2020. (Hyundai seems in a catbird position in some markets with the Kona EV right now, and Honda is still trying to figure out what company's electric future looks like, but clearly knows it is the future and the Honda e is incredibly cute and very "present", if unlikely to make it to the US.) (Though a quick search just turns up that Toyota has definitely made an about face on that position in its Chinese operations last year and is finally planning an EV suite of cars with the Chinese market in mind. It's an interesting reminder that right now China is the EV market to beat in terms of how fast EVs have heated up in China. Interesting to watch if it will be the Chinese market that saves Toyota from US/EU mistakes like the Mirai.)

WorldMaker 6y ago

Absolutely, which is why Toyota's Mirai, the last living (why, Toyota, why?) attempt at a Hydrogen fuel cell car still carries the weight of Lithium Ion battery in addition to the fuel cell. I think at this point it seems pretty clear that if you have to cart around a Lithium Ion battery anyway you might as well go all in on an EV. I think it seems pretty clear that the Mirai is just a badly efficient EV with a strange battery mix and a very weird, very confusing, very expensive and hard to find "plug". I think that writing is well enough on the wall that everyone but Toyota seems to agree, and poor Toyota what are they even doing at this point, who knows.

shawndrost 6y ago
I also think the Mirai is a dead end, but here are some things that might interest you: * The energy density (kWh/kg) of the Mirai fuel cell system (stack, tank, etc) is probably 2x or more than its battery. Replacing it with a battery would probably cut range substantially. * New car ramp-ups are weirder than I would've guessed, even when they're not pioneering a new fuel source and infrastructure. Eg the Prius took 8 years to break 50k sales per year, and it was a money-losing or breakeven proposition throughout that entire period. Later, of course, it became a breakout success story. [1] * If fuel cells eventually matter (eg for heavy-duty applications), the Mirai could fail as a vehicle while succeeding as an R&D testbed. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius
- WorldMaker 6y ago
  > The energy density (kWh/kg) of the Mirai fuel cell system (stack, tank, etc) is probably 2x or more than its battery. Replacing it with a battery would probably cut range substantially. I'm not sure how much that matters practically, however. The Toyota Mirai has an EPA estimated range of 312 miles and a base Tesla Model 3 is only a few miles shorter at 299 EPA estimated miles. They appear to be about the same size, though admittedly the Model 3 weighs 20X as much, if quickly searched numbers are correct. Consumers likely don't care about the weight difference other than how it impacts handling (and no one is complaining about the Model 3's handling) and indirectly felt impacts on road maintenance costs (and no one is paying attention to that at all, at least not right now in SUV/light truck-loving America). (ETA: And it doesn't look like the weight scales the way that the size does in a comparable way to battery weight, density aside, and that Toyota can't just double/triple the tank size and blow EVs out of the water range-wise weight for weight or they would have already done so.) > If fuel cells eventually matter (eg for heavy-duty applications), the Mirai could fail as a vehicle while succeeding as an R&D testbed. That almost sounds like a valid reason for the Mirai to continue to exist. Certainly if you are a heavy-duty industrial user of Hydrogen such as a mining company using Hydrogen to replace diesel mining equipment, it might makes sense to have your support fleet of vehicles in/around your mines also capable of using the same Hydrogen infrastructure. That's looking likely to be a small corporate niche at best, so I'm still not sure that it makes sense in 2020 for Toyota to sell the Mirai as a consumer vehicle, but yes maybe calling it a gloom and doom for Toyota to be doing so is a bit strong.
  - ggreer 6y ago
    The curb weight of the Toyota Mirai is 4,075lbs. The Model 3 is 3,552-4,100lbs depending on the configuration. As you noted, range is similar. What's very different is performance. The Mirai goes from 0-60mph in 9 seconds. The slowest Model 3 does it in 5.6 seconds. The fastest Model 3 gets to 60mph in 3.2 seconds. The Toyota's acceleration is limited by the power output of the fuel cell. Its maximum output is 114kW or 153hp. The Tesla's battery can output over 350kW, allowing it to drive much more powerful motors.
Hypx 6y ago
Read about the Hyundai Nexo and Honda Clarity. Far more companies are pursuing hydrogen than you think.
- WorldMaker 6y ago
  That's fair, I was unaware of the Nexo entirely and that the Clarity offered a Hydrogen version (in part because I'm among the vast majority of the US with no Hydrogen infrastructure and no attempts to bother selling it). That said, both Hyundai and Honda are clearly invested enough in full/proper EVs that these models especially feel like hedges/"compliance cars", versus Toyota that still hasn't seemed to commit to full EVs and still talks about the Mirai as if it were more than a hedge and was still the prime bet the company was making, which yes I think it an increasingly weird position in 2020. (Hyundai seems in a catbird position in some markets with the Kona EV right now, and Honda is still trying to figure out what company's electric future looks like, but clearly knows it is the future and the Honda e is incredibly cute and very "present", if unlikely to make it to the US.) (Though a quick search just turns up that Toyota has definitely made an about face on that position in its Chinese operations last year and is finally planning an EV suite of cars with the Chinese market in mind. It's an interesting reminder that right now China is the EV market to beat in terms of how fast EVs have heated up in China. Interesting to watch if it will be the Chinese market that saves Toyota from US/EU mistakes like the Mirai.)