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Something about this stuff rubs me the wrong way. I'm not sure what. I never thought the mentats of Dune is something anyone would want to be.

by reedf1 6y ago

toast0 6y ago
From a brief look, this is more or less a brain training wiki, but playing up the mentat training angle probably makes the site more engaging and fun. I think there's a lot of people who wish they could remember more things, or math more effectively without tools or etc. Probably not a whole lot who want to go to the depths of the mentats. In universe, the training would have started before the trainee could consent, which makes it hard to make a choice to become a mentat, you can't choose to begin training, only to continue or abandon if you were in training since early childhood.
codezero 6y ago
I kind of read it as just taking performance enhancing drugs - a thing that's not too uncommon for peak athletes. Thinking of this like mental athletics, I can imagine folks taking drugs for that too (Adderall? :) )
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
fouc 6y ago
I always thought Mentats were a reference to (and an extension of) the original Computers - humans that performed calculations in their head. > The term "computer", in use from the early 17th century (the first known written reference dates from 1613),[1] meant "one who computes": a person performing mathematical calculations, before electronic computers became commercially available.
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  They were. Same with the Guild Navigators. Humans replaced the thinking machines following the Butlerian Jihad, taking back agency for humanity, but sacrificing agency for those individuals who became machines themselves.
  - fatbird 6y ago
    SPOILERS BELOW: It think this is an oversimplification. Mentats still had agency--both Piter de Vries and Thufir Hawat have their mentat schemes to kill the Baron Harkonnen. One of the big points of the Dune series is the indeterminacy of the universe. Computers, being deterministic, couldn't think properly to handle the full universe, so humanity's subjugation to computers (i.e., "machine thinking", both as rule by computer and as habits of thought for humans) was a dead end. Dependency on computers also meant people didn't develop human skills. After the Butlerian Jihad, the Guild, the Mentats, and the Bene Gesserit all became schools of human development. Mentats aren't just human computers who perform calculations quickly. They cultivate almost zen-like mental states that allow them to sift patterns of data into conclusions, among other techniques. The later books go into much more detail, but part of the point is that they're not deterministic thinkers; they're practitioners of very advanced modes of consciousness.
    - unixhero 6y ago
      That's it. I played Dune 2 and watched the movie so much I thought I knew most about the universe. I guess its about time I pick up Herbert's seminal work. Thanks for your analysis here.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
      Most people in the Dune universe are literally vassals of feudal lords. By removing advanced machines, they instead have warped, specialised human beings in the machine's functions: mentats, suk doctors, navigators, etc. They are servants, human cogs in the system. It's dystopian.
teddyh 6y ago
IIRC, everything in Dune is supposed to be a horrible example of something taken to its extreme. It’s like with Nietzsche¹; most fans are not really fans of what the author actually intended. 1. https://existentialcomics.com/comic/360 https://existentialcomics.com/comic/360
- paxys 6y ago
  The problem is also that this idea is only expanded on in books 2 and beyond, and most people who just read Dune come off with the impression of it simply being a regular heroic story.
  - edmundsauto 6y ago
    I just re-read Dune, and wouldn't say that is entirely accurate. There are multiple times that Mauddib sees terrible things in the future - jihads, death, loss. There is a terribly dark foreboding sense from these visions, but I get the sense that the terribleness is from Paul's actions/status as well as that of their enemy.
    - toast0 6y ago
      Spoilers inside. I got the impression that Paul saw many possible futures where there was certainty of a bad outcome, and some possible futures with an unknown outcome, and that the path to the unknown outcomes all involved jihad and death. So, at least in the first novel, Paul felt compelled to pursue jihad in order to provide an uncertain future, as avoiding jihad would be worse. It's been quite some time since I read beyond the first novel though.
      - dahdum 6y ago
        Paul foresaw the Golden Path, but I don't think that was until after the jihad in the second book. That's why he went off to the desert isn't it? He took the path and was trapped by it.
        6y ago
emteycz 6y ago
Why not? Perhaps not the ones we followed in the stories, but being a mentat in a factory or research laboratory could be a good job in that universe.
blonde_ocean 6y ago
I haven’t read Dune, so when I saw “mentat,” I immediately thought of mentats from Fallout (a chem to boost intelligence stats for a brief period).
- procinct 6y ago
  Which I believe is a reference to Dune :)
7thaccount 6y ago
You wouldn't want to have superhuman cognitive abilities? I mean sure...living in the Dune universe would be less than great, but I thought Mentats were pretty cool. They can do all kinds of things in their heads that 99.999% of humans would need a computer with CAS to do. It would be really nice to not have to spend so much time writing code and computer models if I could just think it up.

Something about this stuff rubs me the wrong way. I'm not sure what. I never thought the mentats of Dune is something anyone would want to be.

by reedf1 6y ago

Something about this stuff rubs me the wrong way. I'm not sure what. I never thought the mentats of Dune is something anyone would want to be.

toast0 6y ago

From a brief look, this is more or less a brain training wiki, but playing up the mentat training angle probably makes the site more engaging and fun. I think there's a lot of people who wish they could remember more things, or math more effectively without tools or etc. Probably not a whole lot who want to go to the depths of the mentats. In universe, the training would have started before the trainee could consent, which makes it hard to make a choice to become a mentat, you can't choose to begin training, only to continue or abandon if you were in training since early childhood.

codezero 6y ago

I kind of read it as just taking performance enhancing drugs - a thing that's not too uncommon for peak athletes. Thinking of this like mental athletics, I can imagine folks taking drugs for that too (Adderall? :) )

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

fouc 6y ago

I always thought Mentats were a reference to (and an extension of) the original Computers - humans that performed calculations in their head. > The term "computer", in use from the early 17th century (the first known written reference dates from 1613),[1] meant "one who computes": a person performing mathematical calculations, before electronic computers became commercially available.

Jtsummers 6y ago
They were. Same with the Guild Navigators. Humans replaced the thinking machines following the Butlerian Jihad, taking back agency for humanity, but sacrificing agency for those individuals who became machines themselves.
- fatbird 6y ago
  SPOILERS BELOW: It think this is an oversimplification. Mentats still had agency--both Piter de Vries and Thufir Hawat have their mentat schemes to kill the Baron Harkonnen. One of the big points of the Dune series is the indeterminacy of the universe. Computers, being deterministic, couldn't think properly to handle the full universe, so humanity's subjugation to computers (i.e., "machine thinking", both as rule by computer and as habits of thought for humans) was a dead end. Dependency on computers also meant people didn't develop human skills. After the Butlerian Jihad, the Guild, the Mentats, and the Bene Gesserit all became schools of human development. Mentats aren't just human computers who perform calculations quickly. They cultivate almost zen-like mental states that allow them to sift patterns of data into conclusions, among other techniques. The later books go into much more detail, but part of the point is that they're not deterministic thinkers; they're practitioners of very advanced modes of consciousness.
  - unixhero 6y ago
    That's it. I played Dune 2 and watched the movie so much I thought I knew most about the universe. I guess its about time I pick up Herbert's seminal work. Thanks for your analysis here.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
    Most people in the Dune universe are literally vassals of feudal lords. By removing advanced machines, they instead have warped, specialised human beings in the machine's functions: mentats, suk doctors, navigators, etc. They are servants, human cogs in the system. It's dystopian.

teddyh 6y ago

IIRC, everything in Dune is supposed to be a horrible example of something taken to its extreme. It’s like with Nietzsche¹; most fans are not really fans of what the author actually intended. 1. https://existentialcomics.com/comic/360 https://existentialcomics.com/comic/360

paxys 6y ago
The problem is also that this idea is only expanded on in books 2 and beyond, and most people who just read Dune come off with the impression of it simply being a regular heroic story.
- edmundsauto 6y ago
  I just re-read Dune, and wouldn't say that is entirely accurate. There are multiple times that Mauddib sees terrible things in the future - jihads, death, loss. There is a terribly dark foreboding sense from these visions, but I get the sense that the terribleness is from Paul's actions/status as well as that of their enemy.
  - toast0 6y ago
    Spoilers inside. I got the impression that Paul saw many possible futures where there was certainty of a bad outcome, and some possible futures with an unknown outcome, and that the path to the unknown outcomes all involved jihad and death. So, at least in the first novel, Paul felt compelled to pursue jihad in order to provide an uncertain future, as avoiding jihad would be worse. It's been quite some time since I read beyond the first novel though.
    - dahdum 6y ago
      Paul foresaw the Golden Path, but I don't think that was until after the jihad in the second book. That's why he went off to the desert isn't it? He took the path and was trapped by it.
      - 6y ago

emteycz 6y ago

Why not? Perhaps not the ones we followed in the stories, but being a mentat in a factory or research laboratory could be a good job in that universe.

blonde_ocean 6y ago

I haven’t read Dune, so when I saw “mentat,” I immediately thought of mentats from Fallout (a chem to boost intelligence stats for a brief period).

procinct 6y ago
Which I believe is a reference to Dune :)

7thaccount 6y ago

You wouldn't want to have superhuman cognitive abilities? I mean sure...living in the Dune universe would be less than great, but I thought Mentats were pretty cool. They can do all kinds of things in their heads that 99.999% of humans would need a computer with CAS to do. It would be really nice to not have to spend so much time writing code and computer models if I could just think it up.