4 ms·

This is a nice reminder that the EU isn’t some benevolent defender of human rights; it’s a surveillance state bureaucracy like all the others. They’ve done a sp

This is a nice reminder that the EU isn’t some benevolent defender of human rights; it’s a surveillance state bureaucracy like all the others. They’ve done a spectacular job at branding, I’ll give them that.

LatteLazy 6y ago
In fairness, its don't much better at human rights than any of its predecessors or competitors...
- dahfizz 6y ago
  That's pretty subjective. The right to free speech and to defend yourself + your property is severely diminished in the EU. The EU and US definitions of "human rights" are pretty different.
  - LatteLazy 6y ago
    I think free speech is much stronger in the EU. No central military means no central system of classifying things and no Espionage act. Similarly, gun rights are states rights in the EU. I shot an AK47 in Poland, seems pretty liberal to me...
    - dahfizz 6y ago
      You can find examples where certain US states or EU states have more freedom in a certain area, but the USA has a much more absolutist view towards human rights than the EU does in general. In the EU, rights are subservient to "the greater good" (as defined by those in power). Some examples: Germany will arrest you for using "symbols of unconstitutional organization". This includes the Communist Hammer + Sickle[1] France has forced many mosques closed because the government found them to be too extreme[2] All employers in the EU have the right to ban the Hijab and any religious dress[3]. And of course, you can be arrested all over the EU for speech that is deemed hateful. In the EU, you only have your rights within reason. Once the exercising of your rights makes other people upset, they are curtailed. Again, the US and EU have different definitions of "human right". So depending on what you think your rights are, you make feel you have more rights in the EU than in the US. But for those things that the US decides to protect as rights, they are on average protected much stronger than in the EU. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_section_86a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_section_86a [2] https://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/08/french-mosques-islam/493919/ https://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/08/french-mosq... [3] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/european-court-justice-islamic-headscarf-hijab-ban-employers-legal-religious-symbols-case-belgium-france-a7628626.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/european-cou...
      - LatteLazy 6y ago
        The same exact limits apply in the USA. Freedom of speech is no more absolute there than in the EU exactly because no one wants people "shouting fire in a crowded theatre". Similarly, in the USA you can be fired for wearing a hijab just as rapidly. The USA has some (not all) rights well protected against government action, but your employer has vastly more right to restrict your activities. Recent rulings even allow employers to compel religion or ban lgbt etc so long as the employer is "tightly held". This is the weakness of the US system: it protects a small number of limited rights very strongly, but only a small number and only against govetent interference. The EU has a much broader approach to rights in both these dimensions.
        dahfizz 6y ago
        > Freedom of speech is no more absolute there than in the EU exactly because no one wants people "shouting fire in a crowded theatre". In the US, only direct incitements to violence and mayhem are not protected (like your example). In the EU they take this much further to outright ban all speech deemed hateful. That's not the same restriction. > Similarly, in the USA you can be fired for wearing a hijab just as rapidly. Absolutely false. That kind of discrimination is against the law here[1]. I'm sure it still happens, but the wronged party has the ability to fight discrimination in court. In Europe, the opposite is true. The employer has a legal right to ban Hijabs and religious dress. > Recent rulings even allow employers to compel religion or ban lgbt etc Can you explain this more? Any info I find says the opposite[2]. > This is the weakness of the US system: it protects a small number of limited rights very strongly, but only a small number and only against govetent interference. The EU has a much broader approach to rights in both these dimensions. This comes back to a fundamental disagreement about what rights are. For the Bill-of-Rights type rights, Americans do have much more robust protections than Europeans, and not just from governmental interference. There is better religious / racial employee protections, you have a greater ability to defend yourself against people violating your property rights, etc. For fluffier rights, like "the right to respect" or "the right to free $governmentService", you are better off in Europe. But they do not protect these rights to the same degree as American Bill-of-Right rights. For example, in every German citizen has the right to healthcare, but they have a compulsory insurance scheme to pay for it. They call that a 'right', but its something different than in the American definition. [1]https://www.eeoc.gov/fact-sheet/questions-and-answers-about-workplace-rights-muslims-arabs-south-asians-and-sikhs-under https://www.eeoc.gov/fact-sheet/questions-and-answers-about-... [2] https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/supreme-court-makes-historic-ruling-lgbt-employment-discrimination/story?id=71254749 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/supreme-court-makes-historic...
  - LordDragonfang 6y ago
    Because the right to free speech is working out so well for American politics these days. Not to mention that we're jailing people for protesting the government while letting nazism be on the rise. And while I'm not exactly sure which "right defend yourself + your property" you're referring to, I'd wager you're talking about the right to extrajudicially murder people who you feel threatened by, or the right to own tools intended to assist in that murder, neither of which are "human rights" if you're honest about what you're discussing. Even in the US, the right to bear arms is a constitutional one, not a human one.
    - kyboren 6y ago
      > Because the right to free speech is working out so well for American politics these days. I am unconvinced that the state of US politics is a consequence of a more permissive environment for speech. > I'd wager you're talking about the right to extrajudicially murder people who you feel threatened by That's one hell of a biased way to describe the right to defend oneself. The right to self defense, and to use basic tools in aid of that defense, is indeed an inherent human right and not one that that springs from the text of some document.
  - BrandoElFollito 6y ago
    Free speech is very strong in Europe and deep rooted in the culture. You can say whatever you want, much more than in the US (we do not loose our mind when someone says tits or black - this is also free speech, not only amendments in the context of gov related speech). Charlie Hebdo paid a heavy price for this freedom (and while I do not like their style at all, I am deeply thankful to them). As for the property this is a disaster. A squatter breaks in your house, stays 48 hours and it is basically theirs. This is the case where I am really pro gun because this is delayed robbery. I think that some blood will be poured and only then our useless politicians may get off their ivory tower to do something then (in France we are close)
  - ric2b 6y ago
    > The right to free speech Compared to the US? I don't see it except for a few EU countries, mostly the ex-USSR ones. > and to defend yourself + your property Are you talking about the "right" to kill someone that tries to steal your laptop at night? Yeah, that's not usually allowed in the EU, only if your life is at risk.

LatteLazy 6y ago

In fairness, its don't much better at human rights than any of its predecessors or competitors...

dahfizz 6y ago
That's pretty subjective. The right to free speech and to defend yourself + your property is severely diminished in the EU. The EU and US definitions of "human rights" are pretty different.
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  I think free speech is much stronger in the EU. No central military means no central system of classifying things and no Espionage act. Similarly, gun rights are states rights in the EU. I shot an AK47 in Poland, seems pretty liberal to me...
  - dahfizz 6y ago
    You can find examples where certain US states or EU states have more freedom in a certain area, but the USA has a much more absolutist view towards human rights than the EU does in general. In the EU, rights are subservient to "the greater good" (as defined by those in power). Some examples: Germany will arrest you for using "symbols of unconstitutional organization". This includes the Communist Hammer + Sickle[1] France has forced many mosques closed because the government found them to be too extreme[2] All employers in the EU have the right to ban the Hijab and any religious dress[3]. And of course, you can be arrested all over the EU for speech that is deemed hateful. In the EU, you only have your rights within reason. Once the exercising of your rights makes other people upset, they are curtailed. Again, the US and EU have different definitions of "human right". So depending on what you think your rights are, you make feel you have more rights in the EU than in the US. But for those things that the US decides to protect as rights, they are on average protected much stronger than in the EU. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_section_86a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_section_86a [2] https://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/08/french-mosques-islam/493919/ https://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/08/french-mosq... [3] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/european-court-justice-islamic-headscarf-hijab-ban-employers-legal-religious-symbols-case-belgium-france-a7628626.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/european-cou...
    - LatteLazy 6y ago
      The same exact limits apply in the USA. Freedom of speech is no more absolute there than in the EU exactly because no one wants people "shouting fire in a crowded theatre". Similarly, in the USA you can be fired for wearing a hijab just as rapidly. The USA has some (not all) rights well protected against government action, but your employer has vastly more right to restrict your activities. Recent rulings even allow employers to compel religion or ban lgbt etc so long as the employer is "tightly held". This is the weakness of the US system: it protects a small number of limited rights very strongly, but only a small number and only against govetent interference. The EU has a much broader approach to rights in both these dimensions.
      - dahfizz 6y ago
        > Freedom of speech is no more absolute there than in the EU exactly because no one wants people "shouting fire in a crowded theatre". In the US, only direct incitements to violence and mayhem are not protected (like your example). In the EU they take this much further to outright ban all speech deemed hateful. That's not the same restriction. > Similarly, in the USA you can be fired for wearing a hijab just as rapidly. Absolutely false. That kind of discrimination is against the law here[1]. I'm sure it still happens, but the wronged party has the ability to fight discrimination in court. In Europe, the opposite is true. The employer has a legal right to ban Hijabs and religious dress. > Recent rulings even allow employers to compel religion or ban lgbt etc Can you explain this more? Any info I find says the opposite[2]. > This is the weakness of the US system: it protects a small number of limited rights very strongly, but only a small number and only against govetent interference. The EU has a much broader approach to rights in both these dimensions. This comes back to a fundamental disagreement about what rights are. For the Bill-of-Rights type rights, Americans do have much more robust protections than Europeans, and not just from governmental interference. There is better religious / racial employee protections, you have a greater ability to defend yourself against people violating your property rights, etc. For fluffier rights, like "the right to respect" or "the right to free $governmentService", you are better off in Europe. But they do not protect these rights to the same degree as American Bill-of-Right rights. For example, in every German citizen has the right to healthcare, but they have a compulsory insurance scheme to pay for it. They call that a 'right', but its something different than in the American definition. [1]https://www.eeoc.gov/fact-sheet/questions-and-answers-about-workplace-rights-muslims-arabs-south-asians-and-sikhs-under https://www.eeoc.gov/fact-sheet/questions-and-answers-about-... [2] https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/supreme-court-makes-historic-ruling-lgbt-employment-discrimination/story?id=71254749 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/supreme-court-makes-historic...
- LordDragonfang 6y ago
  Because the right to free speech is working out so well for American politics these days. Not to mention that we're jailing people for protesting the government while letting nazism be on the rise. And while I'm not exactly sure which "right defend yourself + your property" you're referring to, I'd wager you're talking about the right to extrajudicially murder people who you feel threatened by, or the right to own tools intended to assist in that murder, neither of which are "human rights" if you're honest about what you're discussing. Even in the US, the right to bear arms is a constitutional one, not a human one.
  - kyboren 6y ago
    > Because the right to free speech is working out so well for American politics these days. I am unconvinced that the state of US politics is a consequence of a more permissive environment for speech. > I'd wager you're talking about the right to extrajudicially murder people who you feel threatened by That's one hell of a biased way to describe the right to defend oneself. The right to self defense, and to use basic tools in aid of that defense, is indeed an inherent human right and not one that that springs from the text of some document.
- BrandoElFollito 6y ago
  Free speech is very strong in Europe and deep rooted in the culture. You can say whatever you want, much more than in the US (we do not loose our mind when someone says tits or black - this is also free speech, not only amendments in the context of gov related speech). Charlie Hebdo paid a heavy price for this freedom (and while I do not like their style at all, I am deeply thankful to them). As for the property this is a disaster. A squatter breaks in your house, stays 48 hours and it is basically theirs. This is the case where I am really pro gun because this is delayed robbery. I think that some blood will be poured and only then our useless politicians may get off their ivory tower to do something then (in France we are close)
- ric2b 6y ago
  > The right to free speech Compared to the US? I don't see it except for a few EU countries, mostly the ex-USSR ones. > and to defend yourself + your property Are you talking about the "right" to kill someone that tries to steal your laptop at night? Yeah, that's not usually allowed in the EU, only if your life is at risk.