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My wife would be very quick to tell you that it would have gone very differently if a woman did the same thing. I've heard numerous stories where she didn't ta

My wife would be very quick to tell you that it would have gone very differently if a woman did the same thing. I've heard numerous stories where she didn't talk like that and nobody would listen to her. And I've heard the other stories where she did talk like that and got complaints from the other employees and ended up being talked to by her boss, even though she was correct and got stuff done. So while it's nice to recognize that that tone can get stuff done, it doesn't work for everyone and people who don't use that tone can also get things done. You might just have to listen harder.

mpfundstein 6y ago
i dont think her sex has anything to do with it. its a company culture thing. in some cultures interrupting is necessary to get heard even at the slightest, while at others people will outcast you as a 'different to work with'. in her next job, stuff might be totally different i've been in both cultures.
- Schiendelman 6y ago
  What makes you discount the role of sex? Honestly curious - it’s pervasive in workplace treatment issues across the gamut, but you discount it here? Why?
  - yummypaint 6y ago
    People get uncomfortable when they have to think about their privilege. It chips away at the bootstraps fantasy. As a white guy in a field that's mostly male i see this all the time. Lots of people's self worth seems to hinge on the ideal self-reliancy, so to recognize the unfairly positive treatment we receive is too much to bear for many. Instead, they expend their mental energy on finding ANY other passable explanation to divert conversation to a different subtopic to escape the negative emotions caused by the contradiction.
    - mpfundstein 6y ago
      what the heck are you talking about lol
  - mpfundstein 6y ago
    because i worked in both cultures and also with very strong women who regurarily topped men. its a culture thing, not a gender thing. putting it on the sex takes responsibilty away and creates a victim role which is not necessary. heck my last cfo was a wonder women. sharp as a knife and she pushed the company more than all other male leaders combined. and she was rude af which probably helped as everyone was alpha there
ethanbond 6y ago
This is definitely an area with a fairly large gap between the reactions that men and women get. One thing that’s useful to keep in mind though is that men who talk like this probably do also receive negative feedback. Negative feedback is not the end of the story, and in my experience one of the most useful skills a person can develop is to acknowledge negative feedback and then consciously decide how and whether to integrate it into behavior change. Some behaviors can be both correct and make people uncomfortable. Of course this mechanic is also “gendered” in the sense that women would probably be less inclined to dismiss said feedback due to a lifetime of being raised as people pleasers (obviously not all women/cultures/etc), but this may be a place where it makes sense to undo some of that training and say, “if what I say is correct and useful, their discomfort with my speaking up is a problem for them to deal with.”
duxup 6y ago
Yup. There was one woman who worked at that place. She was super smart and way senior compared to me. She'd call me over and I'd pretend to be her manager from time to time.... the moment I said the same thing she did, they'd accept it. Sometimes I didn't even know what she was asking me to say, she'd just sigh and hand me a piece of paper and I'd read it to them...

mpfundstein 6y ago

i dont think her sex has anything to do with it. its a company culture thing. in some cultures interrupting is necessary to get heard even at the slightest, while at others people will outcast you as a 'different to work with'. in her next job, stuff might be totally different i've been in both cultures.

Schiendelman 6y ago
What makes you discount the role of sex? Honestly curious - it’s pervasive in workplace treatment issues across the gamut, but you discount it here? Why?
- yummypaint 6y ago
  People get uncomfortable when they have to think about their privilege. It chips away at the bootstraps fantasy. As a white guy in a field that's mostly male i see this all the time. Lots of people's self worth seems to hinge on the ideal self-reliancy, so to recognize the unfairly positive treatment we receive is too much to bear for many. Instead, they expend their mental energy on finding ANY other passable explanation to divert conversation to a different subtopic to escape the negative emotions caused by the contradiction.
  - mpfundstein 6y ago
    what the heck are you talking about lol
- mpfundstein 6y ago
  because i worked in both cultures and also with very strong women who regurarily topped men. its a culture thing, not a gender thing. putting it on the sex takes responsibilty away and creates a victim role which is not necessary. heck my last cfo was a wonder women. sharp as a knife and she pushed the company more than all other male leaders combined. and she was rude af which probably helped as everyone was alpha there

ethanbond 6y ago

This is definitely an area with a fairly large gap between the reactions that men and women get. One thing that’s useful to keep in mind though is that men who talk like this probably do also receive negative feedback. Negative feedback is not the end of the story, and in my experience one of the most useful skills a person can develop is to acknowledge negative feedback and then consciously decide how and whether to integrate it into behavior change. Some behaviors can be both correct and make people uncomfortable. Of course this mechanic is also “gendered” in the sense that women would probably be less inclined to dismiss said feedback due to a lifetime of being raised as people pleasers (obviously not all women/cultures/etc), but this may be a place where it makes sense to undo some of that training and say, “if what I say is correct and useful, their discomfort with my speaking up is a problem for them to deal with.”

duxup 6y ago

Yup. There was one woman who worked at that place. She was super smart and way senior compared to me. She'd call me over and I'd pretend to be her manager from time to time.... the moment I said the same thing she did, they'd accept it. Sometimes I didn't even know what she was asking me to say, she'd just sigh and hand me a piece of paper and I'd read it to them...