4 ms·

> should have realized that you can't be leading a flagship of diversity on the one hand and be a bigot on the other Is it ridiculous to suggest we should just

by stef25 6y ago

> should have realized that you can't be leading a flagship of diversity on the one hand and be a bigot on the other Is it ridiculous to suggest we should just ignore what people think and do in their private lives? I both fully support gay marriage and couldn't give a rat's ass about what the maker of my browser thinks about it (Eich donated 1000$ to Prop 8, 12 years ago). The real problem is that you can pay to have laws changed! These "acts of protest" like OkCupid's banner need to stop. Most likely they care as much as I do (= not), they're just preemptively trying to get on the right side of the argument, trying to win the social justice olympics, to avoid the same fate as Eich.

Xylakant 6y ago
> Is it ridiculous to suggest we should just ignore what people think and do in their private lives? The problem is that Eich was supposed be leading a team that prides itself for being supportive of the causes that Eich donated against. Bridging that gap became impossible once he was on public record for that. Having any leadership position requires at least a fundamental trust of the people you’re supposed to be leading.
jacquesm 6y ago
It's not about you and me. It is about Eich's ability to effectively lead Mozilla while being on the record about this stance regarding gay marriage. How many of Mozilla's employees are gay and/or in favor of gay marriage? If you alienate roughly 55% (possibly much more) or so of a group you are supposed to lead you have just made your life quite impossible. Eich probably did the right thing to resign, he would have had to either come around on the subject (which he did not) or he'd have to walk. OkCupid is not a part of FireFox, they were simply trying to virtue signal at Eich/FFs expense, and the empire behind OkCupid (not the original founders) has done a lot worse than anything that Eich ever did. That would have been easy enough to ignore. But the Mozilla employees were another matter. Money in politics is a problem in and of itself, that doesn't mean that CEOs living in glass houses should not be aware that if they start throwing stones there will be consequences.
- mongol 6y ago
  I see your point but seen in historical light, if he would have more successful (than current management) in bringing Mozilla profit, the same employees might still have their jobs.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    The 'argument from alternative universe' is not one that can be won from either side of a debate. What happened happened, this is where we are. All the people here arguing that Eich should not have been ousted are making an argument that might have held up but we will never know. Maybe half of Mozilla would have resigned and then they would not have had those particular jobs either, maybe Eich would have come around after a discussion with employees that were directly affected by his donation. But we'll never know so this is not a fruitful branch of the discussion.
- linspace 6y ago
  That is the problem, the inability of a lot of people to disagree with each other. This completely good/bad classification of people. People can be wrong about gay marriage, abortion, climate change, immigration and a lot of different issues and still be right about a lot of other things and have other virtues and be good persons overall.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    Of course. But as a CEO if you decide to wear your politics on your sleeve (which nobody forces you to) then you are making a statement which will likely beget a response. If a dutch CEO would come out to vote for Geert Wilders' PVV (our ultra rightwing populist party) I'm pretty sure that would have an immediate effect on the company and on its remaining employees. Employees as a rule want to be associated with companies and CEOs that they feel have their interests at heart. Plenty of them can be 'bought', which is why so many terrible companies with terrible leadership flourish. But Mozilla made it quite plain that they weren't going to be 'that sort of company' and if you say that loud enough and often enough then there are certain things you should not do.
jboog 6y ago
Funny you think giving gays and lesbians the same rights as everyone else in this country is "social justice olympics" No other way to describe this contempt for basic human rights than "vice signalling"
- itsoktocry 6y ago
  >Funny you think giving gays and lesbians the same rights as everyone else in this country I'm a straight, white male with a long-time significant other. We never got married because marriage is a religious ceremony, and we don't share those values (for example, the church's views on gay marriage). At least in my country, being married doesn't give a person any more "rights".
  - jboog 6y ago
    Then you should do some research because there are massive government incentives to get married in the US that gays and lesbians were cut off from. What happens in your country is irrelevant to this discussion

by stef25 6y ago

Xylakant 6y ago

> Is it ridiculous to suggest we should just ignore what people think and do in their private lives? The problem is that Eich was supposed be leading a team that prides itself for being supportive of the causes that Eich donated against. Bridging that gap became impossible once he was on public record for that. Having any leadership position requires at least a fundamental trust of the people you’re supposed to be leading.

jacquesm 6y ago

It's not about you and me. It is about Eich's ability to effectively lead Mozilla while being on the record about this stance regarding gay marriage. How many of Mozilla's employees are gay and/or in favor of gay marriage? If you alienate roughly 55% (possibly much more) or so of a group you are supposed to lead you have just made your life quite impossible. Eich probably did the right thing to resign, he would have had to either come around on the subject (which he did not) or he'd have to walk. OkCupid is not a part of FireFox, they were simply trying to virtue signal at Eich/FFs expense, and the empire behind OkCupid (not the original founders) has done a lot worse than anything that Eich ever did. That would have been easy enough to ignore. But the Mozilla employees were another matter. Money in politics is a problem in and of itself, that doesn't mean that CEOs living in glass houses should not be aware that if they start throwing stones there will be consequences.

mongol 6y ago
I see your point but seen in historical light, if he would have more successful (than current management) in bringing Mozilla profit, the same employees might still have their jobs.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  The 'argument from alternative universe' is not one that can be won from either side of a debate. What happened happened, this is where we are. All the people here arguing that Eich should not have been ousted are making an argument that might have held up but we will never know. Maybe half of Mozilla would have resigned and then they would not have had those particular jobs either, maybe Eich would have come around after a discussion with employees that were directly affected by his donation. But we'll never know so this is not a fruitful branch of the discussion.
linspace 6y ago
That is the problem, the inability of a lot of people to disagree with each other. This completely good/bad classification of people. People can be wrong about gay marriage, abortion, climate change, immigration and a lot of different issues and still be right about a lot of other things and have other virtues and be good persons overall.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  Of course. But as a CEO if you decide to wear your politics on your sleeve (which nobody forces you to) then you are making a statement which will likely beget a response. If a dutch CEO would come out to vote for Geert Wilders' PVV (our ultra rightwing populist party) I'm pretty sure that would have an immediate effect on the company and on its remaining employees. Employees as a rule want to be associated with companies and CEOs that they feel have their interests at heart. Plenty of them can be 'bought', which is why so many terrible companies with terrible leadership flourish. But Mozilla made it quite plain that they weren't going to be 'that sort of company' and if you say that loud enough and often enough then there are certain things you should not do.

jboog 6y ago

Funny you think giving gays and lesbians the same rights as everyone else in this country is "social justice olympics" No other way to describe this contempt for basic human rights than "vice signalling"

itsoktocry 6y ago
>Funny you think giving gays and lesbians the same rights as everyone else in this country I'm a straight, white male with a long-time significant other. We never got married because marriage is a religious ceremony, and we don't share those values (for example, the church's views on gay marriage). At least in my country, being married doesn't give a person any more "rights".
- jboog 6y ago
  Then you should do some research because there are massive government incentives to get married in the US that gays and lesbians were cut off from. What happens in your country is irrelevant to this discussion