4 ms·

A: vox isn't a valid news source for this kind of news. B: "a survey of 2000 experts from around the world" is not a valid way to collect such data And finall

by ars 6y ago

A: vox isn't a valid news source for this kind of news. B: "a survey of 2000 experts from around the world" is not a valid way to collect such data And finally the actual article says: "Its closest peers are, almost uniformly, radical right and anti-democratic parties. This includes Turkey’s AKP (a regime that is one of the world’s leading jailers of journalists), and Poland’s PiS (which has threatened dissenting judges with criminal punishment)." Since concluding the Republican party is like those is ridiculous on it's face, one can only conclude this survey is garbage if it generates such results. To be specific: the survey isn't measuring how the Republican party actually is. Rather it's measuring how these experts think the Republican party is - informed mainly by a liberal American media. I've seen it over and over: Decide how you think the opponent will behave, then criticize them, in advance, as if they have already behaved that way. Think about it: Do you think Republicans would "jail journalists" and "threaten judges with criminal punishment"? Next, think Did Republicans actually do that? And consider why your opinion on what you think they would do doesn't match what they actually did.

FireBeyond 6y ago
> This includes Turkey’s AKP (a regime that is one of the world’s leading jailers of journalists) Whereas we, on the other hand, are only the second leading jailer of citizens. > which has threatened dissenting judges with criminal punishment Our current President repeatedly threatens journalists and the media with criminal punishment, tying your two points together.
- m0zg 6y ago
  > Our current President repeatedly threatens journalists and the media with criminal punishment Nope. He verifiably does not. The only time Trumps sued the press was when Melania sued Daily Mail for libel. Daily Mail lost and paid her $2.9M. https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/04/12/daily-mail-melania-trump-libel/ https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/04/12/daily-mail-melania-tr... If Trump sued for libel every time (which, IMO, he should, to provide some negative feedback to the system that's otherwise unstable), he'd put half the press in the country out of business by now.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    His attacks go beyond suing for libel. Suing for libel is pretty benign. Calling the media "the enemy of the people" is pretty bad. https://cpj.org/reports/2020/04/trump-media-attacks-credibility-leaks/ https://cpj.org/reports/2020/04/trump-media-attacks-credibil...
    - m0zg 6y ago
      But he does not "threaten journalists and the media with criminal punishment", which is what I was pointing out. And if we were to react to name calling, they've called him far worse.
      - triceratops 6y ago
        That's a pretty low bar for the leader of the free world.
        m0zg 6y ago
        And an even lower bar for the "free press": to refrain from driving the country towards a full blown civil war to generate clickbait, and maybe even consider doing serious reporting again, for the first time in 20 years. Trump is not entirely wrong. The US press is full of radical propaganda at this point because it's good for "engagement". People have been radicalized because of it. People died because of it.
        FireBeyond 6y ago
        Trump actively milks it, witness his coziness with FOX and, when they weren't sufficiently sycophantic, OANN, which, while not being state-funded, comes as close as possible to the propaganda arm of the Trump government, and he actively encourages it. So forgive us if we take "The press are the enemy of the people" from Trump with a grain of salt, when his sentiments are more accurately "The press that don't support me, the President, unequivocally and uncritically, are the enemy of the people".
triceratops 6y ago
> vox isn't a valid news source for this kind of news. Argumentum ad hominem. > Since concluding the Republican party is like those is ridiculous on it's face, Why? > Do you think Republicans would "jail journalists" and "threaten judges with criminal punishment"? They may not (yet) be doing those specific things. However, the article goes on to state which "anti-democratic" things they're actually doing: "Over the past decade and a half, Republicans have shown disdain for procedural fairness and a willingness to put the pursuit of power over democratic principles. They have implemented measures that make it harder for racial minorities to vote, render votes from Democratic-leaning constituencies irrelevant, and relentlessly blocked Democratic efforts to conduct normal functions of government." There are additional examples of this in the article: "For example, Republicans won about 50 percent of the US House vote in North Carolina in 2018’s election. That translated into 70 percent of House seats due to heavily gerrymandered districts. Wisconsin Democrats won every statewide election in 2018 but did not win majorities in either chamber of the state legislature. While Democrats are also at a disadvantage due to concentration in urban areas, gerrymanders share much of the blame." "North Carolina Rep. David Lewis, who chaired the state redistricting committee that put together a map so racially contorted that it was struck down in court in 2016, openly professed the power politics behind extreme gerrymandering in a speech on the statehouse floor." "Lewis is notable mostly for his unusual honesty. Republicans believe they ought to win elections, and are doing everything in the power to make that the case — including changing the rules to stack the playing field in the favor. The effect is a party committed to an anti-democratic creed outside the norm of advanced Western democracies that insists that it is the true guardian of American democracy." Unlike your assertion that these experts are only going off what "liberal media" tells them, they seem to be looking at what's actually happening. And it's deeply concerning.
- ars 6y ago
  > They may not (yet) be doing those specific things Exactly. As I said, they are being rated based on what people like you think they will do, not what they actually do.
  - triceratops 6y ago

by ars 6y ago

FireBeyond 6y ago

> This includes Turkey’s AKP (a regime that is one of the world’s leading jailers of journalists) Whereas we, on the other hand, are only the second leading jailer of citizens. > which has threatened dissenting judges with criminal punishment Our current President repeatedly threatens journalists and the media with criminal punishment, tying your two points together.

m0zg 6y ago
> Our current President repeatedly threatens journalists and the media with criminal punishment Nope. He verifiably does not. The only time Trumps sued the press was when Melania sued Daily Mail for libel. Daily Mail lost and paid her $2.9M. https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/04/12/daily-mail-melania-trump-libel/ https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/04/12/daily-mail-melania-tr... If Trump sued for libel every time (which, IMO, he should, to provide some negative feedback to the system that's otherwise unstable), he'd put half the press in the country out of business by now.
- triceratops 6y ago
  His attacks go beyond suing for libel. Suing for libel is pretty benign. Calling the media "the enemy of the people" is pretty bad. https://cpj.org/reports/2020/04/trump-media-attacks-credibility-leaks/ https://cpj.org/reports/2020/04/trump-media-attacks-credibil...
  - m0zg 6y ago
    But he does not "threaten journalists and the media with criminal punishment", which is what I was pointing out. And if we were to react to name calling, they've called him far worse.
    - triceratops 6y ago
      That's a pretty low bar for the leader of the free world.
      - m0zg 6y ago
        And an even lower bar for the "free press": to refrain from driving the country towards a full blown civil war to generate clickbait, and maybe even consider doing serious reporting again, for the first time in 20 years. Trump is not entirely wrong. The US press is full of radical propaganda at this point because it's good for "engagement". People have been radicalized because of it. People died because of it.
        FireBeyond 6y ago
        Trump actively milks it, witness his coziness with FOX and, when they weren't sufficiently sycophantic, OANN, which, while not being state-funded, comes as close as possible to the propaganda arm of the Trump government, and he actively encourages it. So forgive us if we take "The press are the enemy of the people" from Trump with a grain of salt, when his sentiments are more accurately "The press that don't support me, the President, unequivocally and uncritically, are the enemy of the people".

triceratops 6y ago

> vox isn't a valid news source for this kind of news. Argumentum ad hominem. > Since concluding the Republican party is like those is ridiculous on it's face, Why? > Do you think Republicans would "jail journalists" and "threaten judges with criminal punishment"? They may not (yet) be doing those specific things. However, the article goes on to state which "anti-democratic" things they're actually doing: "Over the past decade and a half, Republicans have shown disdain for procedural fairness and a willingness to put the pursuit of power over democratic principles. They have implemented measures that make it harder for racial minorities to vote, render votes from Democratic-leaning constituencies irrelevant, and relentlessly blocked Democratic efforts to conduct normal functions of government." There are additional examples of this in the article: "For example, Republicans won about 50 percent of the US House vote in North Carolina in 2018’s election. That translated into 70 percent of House seats due to heavily gerrymandered districts. Wisconsin Democrats won every statewide election in 2018 but did not win majorities in either chamber of the state legislature. While Democrats are also at a disadvantage due to concentration in urban areas, gerrymanders share much of the blame." "North Carolina Rep. David Lewis, who chaired the state redistricting committee that put together a map so racially contorted that it was struck down in court in 2016, openly professed the power politics behind extreme gerrymandering in a speech on the statehouse floor." "Lewis is notable mostly for his unusual honesty. Republicans believe they ought to win elections, and are doing everything in the power to make that the case — including changing the rules to stack the playing field in the favor. The effect is a party committed to an anti-democratic creed outside the norm of advanced Western democracies that insists that it is the true guardian of American democracy." Unlike your assertion that these experts are only going off what "liberal media" tells them, they seem to be looking at what's actually happening. And it's deeply concerning.

ars 6y ago
> They may not (yet) be doing those specific things Exactly. As I said, they are being rated based on what people like you think they will do, not what they actually do.
- triceratops 6y ago