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It’s ironic that you think any political party is above doing every last possible thing to win. No political party anywhere on earth has principles above gettin

It’s ironic that you think any political party is above doing every last possible thing to win. No political party anywhere on earth has principles above getting elected. If you believe the democrats are any better, perhaps research machine politics. It is a naked power struggle from top to bottom on all sides.

p1necone 6y ago
I'm not sure what universe you're living in to think that the Democrats are "just as bad". Sure, there's also plenty of corruption in other political parties, but don't think you're fooling anyone into thinking you're not either arguing in bad faith or just ignorant.
- seibelj 6y ago
  I'm sorry, but I believe you are extremely naive.
- spacephysics 6y ago
  The democrats have fumbled this election cycle. One minute they’re encouraging riots, Pelosi and other politicians, next minute Pelosi is asking all violent protesters and looters to be prosecuted. During the Obama administration, Hillary Clinton wrote its the Republican Party‘s duty to the American people to push a Supreme Court seat before Obama’s tenure was over (2016), now they demand the process is halted once the cards are dealt to the opposing side. We’re seeing a shift of the Republican Party representing the working class, and the Democratic Party representing the wealthy. Both have issues, but don’t pretend one is ostensibly worse in totality. Each party takes turns being the villain, and currently the Democrats pushes for chaos in the streets, and it backfired. Just like Nixon was elected after the riots and bombings of the 60’s, this election too will be a landslide similar for both Nixon and Reagan. Democrats pushed too far with ideological baggage that the average blue collar, working class American doesn’t want to deal with. https://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/1969-a-year-of-bombings/ https://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/1969-a-year-of...
- Waterfall 6y ago
  You clearly never lived in Chicago or NYC. These Democrats make Republicans look like angels. They hire their friends as contractors, they do a poor job, then get paid to fix it. You're the ignorant one if you actually think one party is any better.
dane-pgp 6y ago
A recent study[0] found that the Republican party is three times worse than the Democrats in terms of respecting the norms, principles, and practices of democratic countries. (The data was based on a survey of 2000 experts from around the world.) I'm not saying this proves that the Democrats are better, but I do think it's too simplistic to say that every single party in the world is exactly as corrupt/authoritarian as every other party in the world. [0] https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21449634/republicans-supreme-court-gop-trump-authoritarian https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21449634/republicans...
- ars 6y ago
  A: vox isn't a valid news source for this kind of news. B: "a survey of 2000 experts from around the world" is not a valid way to collect such data And finally the actual article says: "Its closest peers are, almost uniformly, radical right and anti-democratic parties. This includes Turkey’s AKP (a regime that is one of the world’s leading jailers of journalists), and Poland’s PiS (which has threatened dissenting judges with criminal punishment)." Since concluding the Republican party is like those is ridiculous on it's face, one can only conclude this survey is garbage if it generates such results. To be specific: the survey isn't measuring how the Republican party actually is. Rather it's measuring how these experts think the Republican party is - informed mainly by a liberal American media. I've seen it over and over: Decide how you think the opponent will behave, then criticize them, in advance, as if they have already behaved that way. Think about it: Do you think Republicans would "jail journalists" and "threaten judges with criminal punishment"? Next, think Did Republicans actually do that? And consider why your opinion on what you think they would do doesn't match what they actually did.
  - FireBeyond 6y ago
    > This includes Turkey’s AKP (a regime that is one of the world’s leading jailers of journalists) Whereas we, on the other hand, are only the second leading jailer of citizens. > which has threatened dissenting judges with criminal punishment Our current President repeatedly threatens journalists and the media with criminal punishment, tying your two points together.
drunkpotato 6y ago
> It’s ironic that you think any political party is above doing every last possible thing to win. Political parties don't do anything, people in them do. The people in those parties, for the most part, do indeed have limits to what they will do to win. The ones that don't are sociopaths who unfortunately sometimes amass undeserved power. But I see no evidence for the kind of universal assertion of amorality you're making here. > No political party anywhere on earth has principles above getting elected. That just treats politics as some kind of nihilistic team sport, which I reject and it's unsupported by any evidence. Parties have platforms. According to https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trust-us-politicians-keep-most-of-their-promises/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trust-us-politicians-ke... politicians do try to keep most of their platform promises. > If you believe the democrats are any better, perhaps research machine politics. I don't understand your point here. It appears that you're defending Republicans doing... something? By saying that the Democrats did... something? > It is a naked power struggle from top to bottom on all sides. That stance seems in direct contradiction to the enlightenment principles upon which the United States was founded. The peaceful transition of power between opposing parties has been very much a hallmark of the US republic for many decades, and a principle to which most of us adhere.
- sthnblllII 6y ago
  >It appears that you're defending Republicans doing... something? By saying that the Democrats did... something? I think he's explicitly NOT defending either party. a critique of one is not a defense of the other.
shajznnckfke 6y ago
I think different organizations have constraints that lend them to prioritizing different values. Because more of the population supports democrats, especially oft-disenfranchised groups, it’s in the party’s interests to expand the rights of voters. It’s similar to how Apple can value privacy more because they are a hardware company. You could look at this cynically and say that these organizations are all amoral agents who only behave according to their incentives. You’d be right. Another way to look at it is that these organizations are tools for humans, and their differing constraints mold them to be useful to further certain values. I don’t naively support democrats because I believe they are better people. I support them because their values align better with the world I want to live in.
threatofrain 6y ago
Mexico looks like a naked power struggle from top to bottom on all sides; the US hasn't yet broken all bonds in a civil war.
Fezzik 6y ago
Look up which party has flagrantly gerrymandered countless districts in the last 20 years... there may be a few that have been redrawn by democrats, but the super-majority have been redrawn by republicans to amplify republican votes. It’s not even a close race regarding who is actually cheating to get elected. Also note that it was a conservative majority of the Supreme Court that said Federal Courts cannot interfere in partisan gerrymandering (a 5-4 vote). Also note which party challenged partisan gerrymandering.
sthnblllII 6y ago
> No political party anywhere on earth has principles above getting elected. If you only know the GOP and DNC i can understand why you'd think that
dumbfoundded 6y ago
Yeah, just like how every company is just a struggle to make money on all sides. Every corporation is ethically the same. Just because some companies knowingly launder money for cartels doesn't make them any worse than any other company. Starting the opioid epidemic for money? You would've too if you were smart and savvy enough. In fact, every person is simply motivated to maximize comfort, minimize pain and procreate. It's a rat race through and through. All people are the same. Child killers and doctors. No difference. Any simple extension of your miserable idea seems foolish. I'd hate to have to live in your mind.
nickysielicki 6y ago
Why is that ironic?

p1necone 6y ago

I'm not sure what universe you're living in to think that the Democrats are "just as bad". Sure, there's also plenty of corruption in other political parties, but don't think you're fooling anyone into thinking you're not either arguing in bad faith or just ignorant.

seibelj 6y ago
I'm sorry, but I believe you are extremely naive.
spacephysics 6y ago
The democrats have fumbled this election cycle. One minute they’re encouraging riots, Pelosi and other politicians, next minute Pelosi is asking all violent protesters and looters to be prosecuted. During the Obama administration, Hillary Clinton wrote its the Republican Party‘s duty to the American people to push a Supreme Court seat before Obama’s tenure was over (2016), now they demand the process is halted once the cards are dealt to the opposing side. We’re seeing a shift of the Republican Party representing the working class, and the Democratic Party representing the wealthy. Both have issues, but don’t pretend one is ostensibly worse in totality. Each party takes turns being the villain, and currently the Democrats pushes for chaos in the streets, and it backfired. Just like Nixon was elected after the riots and bombings of the 60’s, this election too will be a landslide similar for both Nixon and Reagan. Democrats pushed too far with ideological baggage that the average blue collar, working class American doesn’t want to deal with. https://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/1969-a-year-of-bombings/ https://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/1969-a-year-of...
Waterfall 6y ago
You clearly never lived in Chicago or NYC. These Democrats make Republicans look like angels. They hire their friends as contractors, they do a poor job, then get paid to fix it. You're the ignorant one if you actually think one party is any better.

dane-pgp 6y ago

A recent study[0] found that the Republican party is three times worse than the Democrats in terms of respecting the norms, principles, and practices of democratic countries. (The data was based on a survey of 2000 experts from around the world.) I'm not saying this proves that the Democrats are better, but I do think it's too simplistic to say that every single party in the world is exactly as corrupt/authoritarian as every other party in the world. [0] https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21449634/republicans-supreme-court-gop-trump-authoritarian https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21449634/republicans...

ars 6y ago
A: vox isn't a valid news source for this kind of news. B: "a survey of 2000 experts from around the world" is not a valid way to collect such data And finally the actual article says: "Its closest peers are, almost uniformly, radical right and anti-democratic parties. This includes Turkey’s AKP (a regime that is one of the world’s leading jailers of journalists), and Poland’s PiS (which has threatened dissenting judges with criminal punishment)." Since concluding the Republican party is like those is ridiculous on it's face, one can only conclude this survey is garbage if it generates such results. To be specific: the survey isn't measuring how the Republican party actually is. Rather it's measuring how these experts think the Republican party is - informed mainly by a liberal American media. I've seen it over and over: Decide how you think the opponent will behave, then criticize them, in advance, as if they have already behaved that way. Think about it: Do you think Republicans would "jail journalists" and "threaten judges with criminal punishment"? Next, think Did Republicans actually do that? And consider why your opinion on what you think they would do doesn't match what they actually did.
- FireBeyond 6y ago
  > This includes Turkey’s AKP (a regime that is one of the world’s leading jailers of journalists) Whereas we, on the other hand, are only the second leading jailer of citizens. > which has threatened dissenting judges with criminal punishment Our current President repeatedly threatens journalists and the media with criminal punishment, tying your two points together.

drunkpotato 6y ago

> It’s ironic that you think any political party is above doing every last possible thing to win. Political parties don't do anything, people in them do. The people in those parties, for the most part, do indeed have limits to what they will do to win. The ones that don't are sociopaths who unfortunately sometimes amass undeserved power. But I see no evidence for the kind of universal assertion of amorality you're making here. > No political party anywhere on earth has principles above getting elected. That just treats politics as some kind of nihilistic team sport, which I reject and it's unsupported by any evidence. Parties have platforms. According to https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trust-us-politicians-keep-most-of-their-promises/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trust-us-politicians-ke... politicians do try to keep most of their platform promises. > If you believe the democrats are any better, perhaps research machine politics. I don't understand your point here. It appears that you're defending Republicans doing... something? By saying that the Democrats did... something? > It is a naked power struggle from top to bottom on all sides. That stance seems in direct contradiction to the enlightenment principles upon which the United States was founded. The peaceful transition of power between opposing parties has been very much a hallmark of the US republic for many decades, and a principle to which most of us adhere.

sthnblllII 6y ago
>It appears that you're defending Republicans doing... something? By saying that the Democrats did... something? I think he's explicitly NOT defending either party. a critique of one is not a defense of the other.

shajznnckfke 6y ago

I think different organizations have constraints that lend them to prioritizing different values. Because more of the population supports democrats, especially oft-disenfranchised groups, it’s in the party’s interests to expand the rights of voters. It’s similar to how Apple can value privacy more because they are a hardware company. You could look at this cynically and say that these organizations are all amoral agents who only behave according to their incentives. You’d be right. Another way to look at it is that these organizations are tools for humans, and their differing constraints mold them to be useful to further certain values. I don’t naively support democrats because I believe they are better people. I support them because their values align better with the world I want to live in.

threatofrain 6y ago

Mexico looks like a naked power struggle from top to bottom on all sides; the US hasn't yet broken all bonds in a civil war.

Fezzik 6y ago

Look up which party has flagrantly gerrymandered countless districts in the last 20 years... there may be a few that have been redrawn by democrats, but the super-majority have been redrawn by republicans to amplify republican votes. It’s not even a close race regarding who is actually cheating to get elected. Also note that it was a conservative majority of the Supreme Court that said Federal Courts cannot interfere in partisan gerrymandering (a 5-4 vote). Also note which party challenged partisan gerrymandering.

sthnblllII 6y ago

> No political party anywhere on earth has principles above getting elected. If you only know the GOP and DNC i can understand why you'd think that

dumbfoundded 6y ago

Yeah, just like how every company is just a struggle to make money on all sides. Every corporation is ethically the same. Just because some companies knowingly launder money for cartels doesn't make them any worse than any other company. Starting the opioid epidemic for money? You would've too if you were smart and savvy enough. In fact, every person is simply motivated to maximize comfort, minimize pain and procreate. It's a rat race through and through. All people are the same. Child killers and doctors. No difference. Any simple extension of your miserable idea seems foolish. I'd hate to have to live in your mind.

nickysielicki 6y ago

Why is that ironic?