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I think you are reading way too much into this. There are ways to bring up inconvenient truths without being an asshole, and there are ways to be a pleasure to

I think you are reading way too much into this. There are ways to bring up inconvenient truths without being an asshole, and there are ways to be a pleasure to work with without pandering. People who don't see this are actually the ones that people don't enjoy working with.

acituan 6y ago
Well you’ve suggested this ideal of “being fun to work with” and you’re challenged to clarify your position, no need to get defensive. “There are ways to be a pleasure to work with without pandering” I’m sure of that but work by nature includes competitive or opponent processes too (eg code reviews, design reviews, performance reviews), how does the nice guy handle those? To me it sounds like your ideal of being nice could end up causing not getting what one wants or not having one’s job properly (eg not pushing back sufficiently in a code review). Niceness is a tricky metric to go by in a work environment, adults disagree, and work is not always fun.
- sosborn 6y ago
  Honestly, people who view reviews as competition are exactly the people I don't enjoy working with. Those people are always the ones who view any criticism as a slight rather than an opportunity to improve, and it will always show in their work. On the flip side, if the critic can't express their criticisms without being an asshole, well then of course people aren't going to like working with them.
  - acituan 6y ago
    I agree that reviews being seen as a competition is a problem, but it is nonetheless the same problem if you don't see it that way while people around you do. Promotions, compensation etc they are not exactly zero-sum games but they do approximate zero-sum dynamics, so they are a competition whether we like it or not. I think the asshole persona is a useful device to think through this problem, but I think you are overemphasizing it and ignoring other personas. You can express criticisms with perfect tact and you still will encounter people that has a problem with being challenged (it is rather common with newly promoted technical leads or managers), or like I said a healthy code review will require saying "no" at times, with no fault of the reviewer, will still generate adversarial dynamics. And let's be realistic, performance reviews are highly biased towards positive feedback because criticisms look harsher on that format than they are so people hold back therefore I don't see "asshole" dynamics as frequent as you are focusing, if anything "niceness" dynamics is incentivizing dishonesty in peer feedback.
    - sosborn 6y ago
      I don't know how far you are into your career, but think about the people you have worked with that you would like to work with again. Then, think about the people you would avoid working with again at all costs. Now, think about the people you would hire to work for you, and the people you wouldn't even give an interview to. The people you don't enjoy working with - what side of the equation do they fall on? Some of them will be because they are incompetent, and some of them will be because they are terrible people. Now what about about the people you did enjoy working with? What side of the equation are they on? Some of them will be because they were great at their jobs and some of them will be cause they are great people. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority are both competent and people that you enjoy being around. I'm also willing to bet that the people you would be happy to work with again, are genuine in the way they treat other people. The "Fake Niceness" is easy to sniff out. As always, YMMV.

acituan 6y ago

Well you’ve suggested this ideal of “being fun to work with” and you’re challenged to clarify your position, no need to get defensive. “There are ways to be a pleasure to work with without pandering” I’m sure of that but work by nature includes competitive or opponent processes too (eg code reviews, design reviews, performance reviews), how does the nice guy handle those? To me it sounds like your ideal of being nice could end up causing not getting what one wants or not having one’s job properly (eg not pushing back sufficiently in a code review). Niceness is a tricky metric to go by in a work environment, adults disagree, and work is not always fun.

sosborn 6y ago
Honestly, people who view reviews as competition are exactly the people I don't enjoy working with. Those people are always the ones who view any criticism as a slight rather than an opportunity to improve, and it will always show in their work. On the flip side, if the critic can't express their criticisms without being an asshole, well then of course people aren't going to like working with them.
- acituan 6y ago
  I agree that reviews being seen as a competition is a problem, but it is nonetheless the same problem if you don't see it that way while people around you do. Promotions, compensation etc they are not exactly zero-sum games but they do approximate zero-sum dynamics, so they are a competition whether we like it or not. I think the asshole persona is a useful device to think through this problem, but I think you are overemphasizing it and ignoring other personas. You can express criticisms with perfect tact and you still will encounter people that has a problem with being challenged (it is rather common with newly promoted technical leads or managers), or like I said a healthy code review will require saying "no" at times, with no fault of the reviewer, will still generate adversarial dynamics. And let's be realistic, performance reviews are highly biased towards positive feedback because criticisms look harsher on that format than they are so people hold back therefore I don't see "asshole" dynamics as frequent as you are focusing, if anything "niceness" dynamics is incentivizing dishonesty in peer feedback.
  - sosborn 6y ago
    I don't know how far you are into your career, but think about the people you have worked with that you would like to work with again. Then, think about the people you would avoid working with again at all costs. Now, think about the people you would hire to work for you, and the people you wouldn't even give an interview to. The people you don't enjoy working with - what side of the equation do they fall on? Some of them will be because they are incompetent, and some of them will be because they are terrible people. Now what about about the people you did enjoy working with? What side of the equation are they on? Some of them will be because they were great at their jobs and some of them will be cause they are great people. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority are both competent and people that you enjoy being around. I'm also willing to bet that the people you would be happy to work with again, are genuine in the way they treat other people. The "Fake Niceness" is easy to sniff out. As always, YMMV.