4 ms·

And just in case anyone thinks the idea that an elite school won't help a rich kid, there have been studies indicating that is the case. The one that comes to

by jjeaff 6y ago

And just in case anyone thinks the idea that an elite school won't help a rich kid, there have been studies indicating that is the case. The one that comes to mind was the study that compared long term outcomes of students who were accepted to Harvard and attended to those who were accepted but did not attend. Average future incomes were not statistically different. But the study did note that the starkest improvents in future incomes were found in poor and minority students.

asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
Do you have a cite for this? Not saying you're wrong as it's my prior that selection bias is the most important factor in any difference in educational outcomes. But I'd love to have something solid to point to. I will say I don't totally understand how future income differences can be not statistically significant and also be "stark" between lower income students at the same time.
- jjeaff 6y ago
  This article appears to reference both the original study and a more recent update to the study. https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/the-college-solution/2011/03/01/the-ivy-league-earnings-myth https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/the-college-solution/... The no-difference in financial outcomes was based on comparing the average incomes of the two groups. So naturally, you will have outliers on both sides. They found that minority students tended to be the outliers. Part of that probably has to do with the more prestigious school getting them a job they wouldn't have had. But also probably has to do with minority students getting access to the rich, well connected network that they wouldn't have had access to otherwise.
  - curiousllama 6y ago
    Environment and options, too. The Finance Path, Consulting Path, Tech Path, Startup Path - the implicit assumptions of school A to Company B to Grad School C to Company D is objectively super weird (why is I-Banking > MBA > Consulting so standard a path?), but often critical to making a certain salary.
- bumby 6y ago
  I’ve previously read this study (and at least one follow on study) and what they said jibes with my recollection. I’ll see if I can find the exact citation Edit: I believe this is it: https://www.nber.org/papers/w7322 https://www.nber.org/papers/w7322
AcerbicZero 6y ago
I'm not going to shit on a study I haven't read, but it seems likely that if you come from a "rich" family capable of buying you into a college via back channels, you've probably already got a pretty solid leg up in the game. I can't imagine correcting for all of those variables in a manner which isn't going to leave at least a few questions. Either way, I'm sure having a diploma from Harvard would open some doors for pretty much anyone, and I'm not naïve enough to pretend otherwise, but I have serious doubts that a diploma from Harvard can truly tell you anything other than that person has the ability to make it through Harvards' admission filter, and do mindless homework for X number of years, like every other college.
- jmoss20 6y ago
  That's exactly what the study implies. (It doesn't try to correct for those variables; it doesn't have to.)
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
angel_j 6y ago
Garbage in, garbage out. If you admit dummies, they are not going to become a genius. The bigger issue for all of us is, now we are not supporting the students who could really move the needle. So the needle doesn't move.
s1artibartfast 6y ago
Seems like a worthless study without understanding what they did instead. For example, what if they went to Yale or Cambridge?
dcolkitt 6y ago
> compared long term outcomes of students who were accepted to Harvard and attended to those who were accepted but did not attend. I don’t know if this comparison controls for the confounders. Alice and Bob are both accepted to Harvard, and Alice decides to attend and Bob decides to chill out at the University of Maui for four years. That’s pretty indicative of Alice being more ambitious and achievement-oriented.

by jjeaff 6y ago

asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago

Do you have a cite for this? Not saying you're wrong as it's my prior that selection bias is the most important factor in any difference in educational outcomes. But I'd love to have something solid to point to. I will say I don't totally understand how future income differences can be not statistically significant and also be "stark" between lower income students at the same time.

jjeaff 6y ago
This article appears to reference both the original study and a more recent update to the study. https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/the-college-solution/2011/03/01/the-ivy-league-earnings-myth https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/the-college-solution/... The no-difference in financial outcomes was based on comparing the average incomes of the two groups. So naturally, you will have outliers on both sides. They found that minority students tended to be the outliers. Part of that probably has to do with the more prestigious school getting them a job they wouldn't have had. But also probably has to do with minority students getting access to the rich, well connected network that they wouldn't have had access to otherwise.
- curiousllama 6y ago
  Environment and options, too. The Finance Path, Consulting Path, Tech Path, Startup Path - the implicit assumptions of school A to Company B to Grad School C to Company D is objectively super weird (why is I-Banking > MBA > Consulting so standard a path?), but often critical to making a certain salary.
bumby 6y ago
I’ve previously read this study (and at least one follow on study) and what they said jibes with my recollection. I’ll see if I can find the exact citation Edit: I believe this is it: https://www.nber.org/papers/w7322 https://www.nber.org/papers/w7322

AcerbicZero 6y ago

I'm not going to shit on a study I haven't read, but it seems likely that if you come from a "rich" family capable of buying you into a college via back channels, you've probably already got a pretty solid leg up in the game. I can't imagine correcting for all of those variables in a manner which isn't going to leave at least a few questions. Either way, I'm sure having a diploma from Harvard would open some doors for pretty much anyone, and I'm not naïve enough to pretend otherwise, but I have serious doubts that a diploma from Harvard can truly tell you anything other than that person has the ability to make it through Harvards' admission filter, and do mindless homework for X number of years, like every other college.

jmoss20 6y ago
That's exactly what the study implies. (It doesn't try to correct for those variables; it doesn't have to.)

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

angel_j 6y ago

Garbage in, garbage out. If you admit dummies, they are not going to become a genius. The bigger issue for all of us is, now we are not supporting the students who could really move the needle. So the needle doesn't move.

s1artibartfast 6y ago

Seems like a worthless study without understanding what they did instead. For example, what if they went to Yale or Cambridge?

dcolkitt 6y ago

> compared long term outcomes of students who were accepted to Harvard and attended to those who were accepted but did not attend. I don’t know if this comparison controls for the confounders. Alice and Bob are both accepted to Harvard, and Alice decides to attend and Bob decides to chill out at the University of Maui for four years. That’s pretty indicative of Alice being more ambitious and achievement-oriented.