3 ms·

Unfortunately, the caste system is more complex than the issue of race in the US. The reservation system in India was instituted to bring parity between the dow

Unfortunately, the caste system is more complex than the issue of race in the US. The reservation system in India was instituted to bring parity between the downtrodden castes and the upper castes. When I was in engineering school in the late 90s, if you were from a lower caste, you barely had to get passing marks in the engineering entrance exam to make it to a top engineering school. And you would still have unfilled seats. A friend who belonged to a lower caste ( got a rank of 25000 in the entrance exam and breezed into a top engineering school), while another guy from an upper caste who got a rank of 5000, basically was rejected. You pretty much had to get a rank under 3000 if you were from an upper caste to get an admit to any engineering school. Not everyone who is upper case in India is rich, in fact the Brahmins are mostly lower - middle class. To be poor and Brahmin is like getting doubly screwed. The reservation system does not stop at education, you have it in public sector jobs. Merit took a big hit, people who were unqualified started making their way into education and jobs. It's a good idea taken to an extreme. A lot of these "Brahmins" are butt-hurt because of this, but hey, you are in the US now, leave that feudal thinking behind.

fossuser 6y ago
These same arguments are made about race in the US too. In fact, I think looking at both through the lens of caste is a better way to interrogate some of the issues. I thought this podcast made that point in a pretty compelling way: https://cafe.com/stay-tuned/americas-caste-system-with-isabel-wilkerson/ https://cafe.com/stay-tuned/americas-caste-system-with-isabe...
- sharadov 6y ago
  Interesting, I'll check it out. The caste system in India was originally based on profession, and people could move around freely between "castes" , at some point it was co-opted by assholes for their benefit.
  - travmatt 6y ago
    I believe Europe had a guild system that operated in the same way, IIRC. I’d be curious about how those systems compared and evolved.
  - danans 6y ago
    > The caste system in India was originally based on profession That is the official political line, but the reality (as always) was much more complex. It also had a significant tribal, multi-racial, and multi-cultural bases, all evidenced in scriptures and the cultural, linguistic, and genetic landscape of the Indian subcontinent (including Pakistan, Bangladish, Nepal, and Sri Lanka). In that respect it's nothing unique even to India - the social structures of most of the world were built on the same basis.
  - fhood 6y ago
    I find the notion that discrimination based on profession is somehow acceptable extremely strange.
    - jagannathtech 6y ago
      Not discrimination but division of labour or separation of powers to put it in current day context
  - ma2rten 6y ago
    I have been studding Buddhist scriptures and I don't think this true. The following quote is from 2,500 years ago: [The] brahmins say: ‘Only brahmins are the highest caste; other castes are inferior. Only brahmins are the light caste; other castes are dark. Only brahmins are purified, not others. Only brahmins are Brahmā’s rightful sons, born of his mouth, born of Brahmā, created by Brahmā, heirs of Brahmā. https://suttacentral.net/dn27/en/sujato#dn27:4.13 https://suttacentral.net/dn27/en/sujato#dn27:4.13
    - sharadov 6y ago
      "There is no evidence in the Rigveda for an elaborate, much-subdivided and overarching caste system". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India
      - ma2rten 6y ago
        I'm certainly not an expert in Indian history, but it seems that there was a caste system 500 BC with four castes which people were born into. Is there evidence that people were able to move between castes before that time?
- therealdrag0 6y ago
  Another one but with Ezra Klein hosting: https://www.vox.com/2020/8/25/21399479/caste-the-warmth-of-other-suns-isabel-wilkerson-the-ezra-klein-show-race https://www.vox.com/2020/8/25/21399479/caste-the-warmth-of-o...
pm90 6y ago
To right historical wrongs is not easy. I initially thought of the reservation system as a terrible idea because of exactly the reasons you stated. These policies are meant to help society in aggregates so there will always be folks who get screwed. Its important to keep trying though. While slavery in the US is perhaps 300 years old, the caste system has been seemingly around since the beginning of civilization on the Indian subcontinent...that's an unimaginable amount of time over which certain sections of society were systematically discriminated against.
- sharadov 6y ago
  It was meant as repatriation of resources back to the downtrodden, as all well meaning ideas start off.... True, am not against that, but without checks and balances, as as happened in India, it ends up creating another set of problems ( poor Brahmins now complain of lack of opportunities). The caste system was not as rigid before, it was more a system around professions ( Brahmins - intellectual class, the Kshatriyas - warriors, Vyshya - Merchants), until someone at the top decided it did not have to be based on that anymore.
  - mavelikara 6y ago
    pm90> These policies are meant to help society in aggregates so there will always be folks who get screwed. Its important to keep trying though. sharadov> True, am not against that, but without checks and balances, as as happened in India, it ends up creating another set of problems (poor Brahmins now complain of lack of opportunities). Reservation policy should not be confused with financial assistance. The government does have financial assistance in many forms, which is available to everyone needy - brahmins included. Reservation policy is for correcting imbalances in the aggregate, such as the one pointed out by a sibling comment: esalman> What is more unfair? One 25,000-ranked dalit student getting favored over a 5,000 -ranked brahmin, or the fact that 25% of IIT students do not represent dalits even though they represent 25% of the whole population? Poor brahmins, in your example, complain because small dents in institutionalized privileges one enjoys is indistinguishable from oppression.
swebs 6y ago
That sounds exactly like the issue in the US.
esalman 6y ago
What is more unfair? One 25,000-ranked dalit student getting favored over a 5,000 -ranked brahmin, or the fact that 25% of IIT students do not represent dalits even though they represent 25% of the whole population?

fossuser 6y ago

These same arguments are made about race in the US too. In fact, I think looking at both through the lens of caste is a better way to interrogate some of the issues. I thought this podcast made that point in a pretty compelling way: https://cafe.com/stay-tuned/americas-caste-system-with-isabel-wilkerson/ https://cafe.com/stay-tuned/americas-caste-system-with-isabe...

sharadov 6y ago
Interesting, I'll check it out. The caste system in India was originally based on profession, and people could move around freely between "castes" , at some point it was co-opted by assholes for their benefit.
- travmatt 6y ago
  I believe Europe had a guild system that operated in the same way, IIRC. I’d be curious about how those systems compared and evolved.
- danans 6y ago
  > The caste system in India was originally based on profession That is the official political line, but the reality (as always) was much more complex. It also had a significant tribal, multi-racial, and multi-cultural bases, all evidenced in scriptures and the cultural, linguistic, and genetic landscape of the Indian subcontinent (including Pakistan, Bangladish, Nepal, and Sri Lanka). In that respect it's nothing unique even to India - the social structures of most of the world were built on the same basis.
- fhood 6y ago
  I find the notion that discrimination based on profession is somehow acceptable extremely strange.
  - jagannathtech 6y ago
    Not discrimination but division of labour or separation of powers to put it in current day context
- ma2rten 6y ago
  I have been studding Buddhist scriptures and I don't think this true. The following quote is from 2,500 years ago: [The] brahmins say: ‘Only brahmins are the highest caste; other castes are inferior. Only brahmins are the light caste; other castes are dark. Only brahmins are purified, not others. Only brahmins are Brahmā’s rightful sons, born of his mouth, born of Brahmā, created by Brahmā, heirs of Brahmā. https://suttacentral.net/dn27/en/sujato#dn27:4.13 https://suttacentral.net/dn27/en/sujato#dn27:4.13
  - sharadov 6y ago
    "There is no evidence in the Rigveda for an elaborate, much-subdivided and overarching caste system". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India
    - ma2rten 6y ago
      I'm certainly not an expert in Indian history, but it seems that there was a caste system 500 BC with four castes which people were born into. Is there evidence that people were able to move between castes before that time?
therealdrag0 6y ago
Another one but with Ezra Klein hosting: https://www.vox.com/2020/8/25/21399479/caste-the-warmth-of-other-suns-isabel-wilkerson-the-ezra-klein-show-race https://www.vox.com/2020/8/25/21399479/caste-the-warmth-of-o...

pm90 6y ago

To right historical wrongs is not easy. I initially thought of the reservation system as a terrible idea because of exactly the reasons you stated. These policies are meant to help society in aggregates so there will always be folks who get screwed. Its important to keep trying though. While slavery in the US is perhaps 300 years old, the caste system has been seemingly around since the beginning of civilization on the Indian subcontinent...that's an unimaginable amount of time over which certain sections of society were systematically discriminated against.

sharadov 6y ago
It was meant as repatriation of resources back to the downtrodden, as all well meaning ideas start off.... True, am not against that, but without checks and balances, as as happened in India, it ends up creating another set of problems ( poor Brahmins now complain of lack of opportunities). The caste system was not as rigid before, it was more a system around professions ( Brahmins - intellectual class, the Kshatriyas - warriors, Vyshya - Merchants), until someone at the top decided it did not have to be based on that anymore.
- mavelikara 6y ago
  pm90> These policies are meant to help society in aggregates so there will always be folks who get screwed. Its important to keep trying though. sharadov> True, am not against that, but without checks and balances, as as happened in India, it ends up creating another set of problems (poor Brahmins now complain of lack of opportunities). Reservation policy should not be confused with financial assistance. The government does have financial assistance in many forms, which is available to everyone needy - brahmins included. Reservation policy is for correcting imbalances in the aggregate, such as the one pointed out by a sibling comment: esalman> What is more unfair? One 25,000-ranked dalit student getting favored over a 5,000 -ranked brahmin, or the fact that 25% of IIT students do not represent dalits even though they represent 25% of the whole population? Poor brahmins, in your example, complain because small dents in institutionalized privileges one enjoys is indistinguishable from oppression.

swebs 6y ago

That sounds exactly like the issue in the US.

esalman 6y ago

What is more unfair? One 25,000-ranked dalit student getting favored over a 5,000 -ranked brahmin, or the fact that 25% of IIT students do not represent dalits even though they represent 25% of the whole population?