4 ms·

This is a fairly terrible take for a number of reasons, but let's assume good faith and indulge this. * What makes you think that, at any point, lower caste pe

by x3ro 6y ago

This is a fairly terrible take for a number of reasons, but let's assume good faith and indulge this. * What makes you think that, at any point, lower caste people had an on-average lower IQ? The same has been said for plenty of minorities that have been historically discriminated against, such as people of color and women, because opressors are in control of the narrative and see themselves as superior * What does "segregated" (in your original comment) or "selective reproduction" even mean for you? There are more lower caste indians than total Amercians. Are americans lower IQ because of "segregated reproduction"?

zarkov99 6y ago
I assure you I am in good faith, I understand the topic is sensitive, but I don't know what in my comment would suggest I am in bad faith. I think it is likely that there are differences in IQ between the castes, just as there are other physical differences, and that the higher caste would have on average higher IQ since IQ is a decent predictor of social economic success in most contexts. Perhaps people familiar with the Indian education system can chime in about standardized test scores broken down by caste - my recollection from years ago is that there are differences. By segregated reproduction I just mean that most likely mate selection is done within cast, so any difference in IQ between castes is likely to be slow changing as there is little gene exchange between groups. Something similar happens in US society where there is growing stratification along IQ lines.
- edmundsauto 6y ago
  If your primary evidence is results-based, why do you assume it's genetics instead of situational? My assumption would be that higher caste students have more opportunities for proper nutrition, education, etc. Looking at babies adopted into another caste, or people marrying across castes, would help shed some light. But it doesn't seem reasonable that 5k years of caste systems would have such an impact on IQ.
- nicoburns 6y ago
  50-100 years ago there were huge differences between men and women's test scores, and many speculated that it was due to genetic differences. Fast forward to today where women get equivalent education (at least here in the UK), and those differences have disappeared with women actually doing slightly better than men on average. There's a very high chance that it's not genetic.
- daniellarusso 6y ago
  Your comment reminds me of the ‘Jewish Problems’ math exam. https://arxiv.org/abs/1110.1556 https://arxiv.org/abs/1110.1556
bluGill 6y ago
It is possible that higher casts selected for intelligence over the years. Since in India arranged marriage is the norm, parents can select for intelligence if that is a trait they care about. If there is a genetic portion of intelligence that can be selected for. Note the above uses words like "possible" and "if". I find it unlikely this is what was done. More likely - like every other society - they selected for politically powerful. Note too that it is highly likely that in the past rape of lower casts was accepted in some form, which would bring any selected IQ genes to the lower casts.
- samatman 6y ago
  > Note too that it is highly likely that in the past rape of lower casts was accepted in some form, which would bring any selected IQ genes to the lower casts. There is preliminary evidence from genetic sequencing that Indian castes have been highly endogamous for at least 3000 years. India is a vast place with an enormous population, and there's resistance to continuing this research, for fairly obvious reasons. But continue it will, you can't un-sequence a genome after all. So we may yet see a robust answer to this sort of question.
- tomp 6y ago
  This is just an argument for IQ selection; applies equally to each caste as to humanity as a whole. But why would higher castes be more IQ selective than lower castes? Edit: anyone mind telling me why this comment is flagged? Did I say anything controversial?
  - bluGill 6y ago
    As a rule all women breed (there are exceptions of course). In some societies high status males breed with multiple females and low status males have none. In most societies today marriage is 1:1, though there is lots of cheating but in general it means that some women will breed with low status males just for someone - thus all genes get carried on. As I said I assume the powerful selected politically powerful mates for their girls, which might or not be intelligent as well. However it is possible that high status was high intelligence. The lower castes not following that. Look, the above is all just barely possible. you will have to work with me here...
titanomachy 6y ago
I appreciate that you presume good faith. I really believe the best way to address flawed racial arguments is by refuting in the open rather than downvoting to oblivion.

by x3ro 6y ago

zarkov99 6y ago

I assure you I am in good faith, I understand the topic is sensitive, but I don't know what in my comment would suggest I am in bad faith. I think it is likely that there are differences in IQ between the castes, just as there are other physical differences, and that the higher caste would have on average higher IQ since IQ is a decent predictor of social economic success in most contexts. Perhaps people familiar with the Indian education system can chime in about standardized test scores broken down by caste - my recollection from years ago is that there are differences. By segregated reproduction I just mean that most likely mate selection is done within cast, so any difference in IQ between castes is likely to be slow changing as there is little gene exchange between groups. Something similar happens in US society where there is growing stratification along IQ lines.

edmundsauto 6y ago
If your primary evidence is results-based, why do you assume it's genetics instead of situational? My assumption would be that higher caste students have more opportunities for proper nutrition, education, etc. Looking at babies adopted into another caste, or people marrying across castes, would help shed some light. But it doesn't seem reasonable that 5k years of caste systems would have such an impact on IQ.
nicoburns 6y ago
50-100 years ago there were huge differences between men and women's test scores, and many speculated that it was due to genetic differences. Fast forward to today where women get equivalent education (at least here in the UK), and those differences have disappeared with women actually doing slightly better than men on average. There's a very high chance that it's not genetic.
daniellarusso 6y ago
Your comment reminds me of the ‘Jewish Problems’ math exam. https://arxiv.org/abs/1110.1556 https://arxiv.org/abs/1110.1556

bluGill 6y ago

It is possible that higher casts selected for intelligence over the years. Since in India arranged marriage is the norm, parents can select for intelligence if that is a trait they care about. If there is a genetic portion of intelligence that can be selected for. Note the above uses words like "possible" and "if". I find it unlikely this is what was done. More likely - like every other society - they selected for politically powerful. Note too that it is highly likely that in the past rape of lower casts was accepted in some form, which would bring any selected IQ genes to the lower casts.

samatman 6y ago
> Note too that it is highly likely that in the past rape of lower casts was accepted in some form, which would bring any selected IQ genes to the lower casts. There is preliminary evidence from genetic sequencing that Indian castes have been highly endogamous for at least 3000 years. India is a vast place with an enormous population, and there's resistance to continuing this research, for fairly obvious reasons. But continue it will, you can't un-sequence a genome after all. So we may yet see a robust answer to this sort of question.
tomp 6y ago
This is just an argument for IQ selection; applies equally to each caste as to humanity as a whole. But why would higher castes be more IQ selective than lower castes? Edit: anyone mind telling me why this comment is flagged? Did I say anything controversial?
- bluGill 6y ago
  As a rule all women breed (there are exceptions of course). In some societies high status males breed with multiple females and low status males have none. In most societies today marriage is 1:1, though there is lots of cheating but in general it means that some women will breed with low status males just for someone - thus all genes get carried on. As I said I assume the powerful selected politically powerful mates for their girls, which might or not be intelligent as well. However it is possible that high status was high intelligence. The lower castes not following that. Look, the above is all just barely possible. you will have to work with me here...

titanomachy 6y ago

I appreciate that you presume good faith. I really believe the best way to address flawed racial arguments is by refuting in the open rather than downvoting to oblivion.