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> It is common for affirmative action students to not do very well there. Do you have any data at all for this? No. Only my observation from when I went to IIT

by anu7df 6y ago

> It is common for affirmative action students to not do very well there. Do you have any data at all for this? No. Only my observation from when I went to IIT for my undergrad about 2 decades ago. At that time they even used to have remedial classes for students who came in through the reservation system. Again, I would like to emphasize that not all of those students were having difficulties coping with the workload. In fact, it is not uncommon for the general category students to crumble under pressure as well. > Then it is not a stretch to imagine that some of them may not be very good at their job either. It's not right to assume that someone may not be good at their current job because they may (in your mind) have benefited from some "affirmative action" program far in the past (John Doe is 20+ years into his career). Judge people on current performance, not past history. Plenty of average students shine in the real world. Yes, plenty of average students shine in the real world. Nothing you say here contradicts what I wrote above. To rephrase with an example, if GPA was the only criteria for accepting students into a university, and in a class of mostly 4.0 students you admit a few 2.0 students with affirmative action, it is not difficult to see how they would have trouble in class. If they also get demotivated and end up not getting much from that education, some of them may not do so well in work life either.* > The cynic in me thinks this guy accuser in the lawsuit is trying to hide his incompetence Why don't we let the courts work it out instead of speculating on people's motivations or honesty? Agreed. That was uncalled for. But I did preface it with "cynic in me".

triceratops 6y ago
> they even used to have remedial classes for students who came in through the reservation... it is not uncommon for the general category students to crumble under pressure as well. So it sounds like IIT is generally a tough place to study at, regardless of how you get in. Surely you would agree that how someone got in isn't really relevant after they've been working for 2 decades? > in a class of mostly 4.0 students you admit a few 2.0 students with affirmative action, it is not difficult to see how they would have trouble in class. If they also get demotivated and end up not getting much from that education, some of them may not do so well in work life either. Again, you're making a lot of assumptions. I can argue the other way too - people for whom studies go easy don't learn to work hard. Because of their high GPA and belief in their own intelligence, they may act in an arrogant, entitled, prima-donna-ish way and may not do so well in work life where they have to deal with others. (I don't believe this, I'm just pointing out the problem with making assumptions like you're doing). You don't know why those "2.0 students" struggled. Maybe it was the first time they studied at an institution with such high standards. Maybe they felt an undercurrent of hostility from their classmates who thought they're not worthy of being there and that affected them mentally. Look at the present state of things. Don't try to extrapolate from incomplete evidence from a long time ago.
- anu7df 6y ago
  I am not sure why you are arguing. I did not say I know the circumstances of this particular situation. I am not making any claims about the ability of any student to learn and do well in any course. All I am saying is that throwing a bunch of under prepared students into the fire, potentially judged for every action, mistake or attempt to learn is a tough situation to be in. Under these circumstances at least a few people would get demotivated to an extent that would affect their future trajectory in life. It has been shown (in the context of school children) that if everyone around you including the teachers think you are good, you tend to do better than you would otherwise. The opposite would result in worse outcomes is not then a huge surprise. Again I am speaking generally, not saying anything about any particular person's circumstance. What are you disagreeing with here?
  - triceratops 6y ago
    > Again I am speaking generally, not saying anything about any particular person's circumstance. What are you disagreeing with here? I'm disagreeing with the whole idea of generalizations. When it comes to people, no generalizations work. You have to look at what's in front of you, rather than what you believe there should be based on what you think their past is.
robbintt 6y ago
RE: the cynic in you: You saw the hole, but you fell into it anyways, it’s just a habit. The hole I fall in is giving people advice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portia_Nelson#Writing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portia_Nelson#Writing

by anu7df 6y ago

triceratops 6y ago

> they even used to have remedial classes for students who came in through the reservation... it is not uncommon for the general category students to crumble under pressure as well. So it sounds like IIT is generally a tough place to study at, regardless of how you get in. Surely you would agree that how someone got in isn't really relevant after they've been working for 2 decades? > in a class of mostly 4.0 students you admit a few 2.0 students with affirmative action, it is not difficult to see how they would have trouble in class. If they also get demotivated and end up not getting much from that education, some of them may not do so well in work life either. Again, you're making a lot of assumptions. I can argue the other way too - people for whom studies go easy don't learn to work hard. Because of their high GPA and belief in their own intelligence, they may act in an arrogant, entitled, prima-donna-ish way and may not do so well in work life where they have to deal with others. (I don't believe this, I'm just pointing out the problem with making assumptions like you're doing). You don't know why those "2.0 students" struggled. Maybe it was the first time they studied at an institution with such high standards. Maybe they felt an undercurrent of hostility from their classmates who thought they're not worthy of being there and that affected them mentally. Look at the present state of things. Don't try to extrapolate from incomplete evidence from a long time ago.

anu7df 6y ago
I am not sure why you are arguing. I did not say I know the circumstances of this particular situation. I am not making any claims about the ability of any student to learn and do well in any course. All I am saying is that throwing a bunch of under prepared students into the fire, potentially judged for every action, mistake or attempt to learn is a tough situation to be in. Under these circumstances at least a few people would get demotivated to an extent that would affect their future trajectory in life. It has been shown (in the context of school children) that if everyone around you including the teachers think you are good, you tend to do better than you would otherwise. The opposite would result in worse outcomes is not then a huge surprise. Again I am speaking generally, not saying anything about any particular person's circumstance. What are you disagreeing with here?
- triceratops 6y ago
  > Again I am speaking generally, not saying anything about any particular person's circumstance. What are you disagreeing with here? I'm disagreeing with the whole idea of generalizations. When it comes to people, no generalizations work. You have to look at what's in front of you, rather than what you believe there should be based on what you think their past is.

robbintt 6y ago

RE: the cynic in you: You saw the hole, but you fell into it anyways, it’s just a habit. The hole I fall in is giving people advice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portia_Nelson#Writing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portia_Nelson#Writing