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I was reading an account from the Roman Empire about parents begrudgingly using the imperial language while their kids grew up completely “Roman”. Then I reflec

I was reading an account from the Roman Empire about parents begrudgingly using the imperial language while their kids grew up completely “Roman”. Then I reflected that if you go back far enough we all have a great^N parent who was in this situation. Someone else in their reply mentioned Hawaii and the US but even Hawaii was unified by force by King Kamehameha. I’ve come to an uneasy acceptance of the fact that we’re all the conquerors and the conquered.

chmod600 6y ago
"I’ve come to an uneasy acceptance of the fact that we’re all the conquerors and the conquered." We all have to accept the past. We don't need to accept that the future will be the same. There are many ways that different areas and cultures can share an assimilate. Trade, travel, multilingualism, federations, mutually-agreed democratic annexation, shared constitutions, diplomacy, immigration, intermarriage, etc. Coercion is not the only option.
- jtdev 6y ago
  One of my favorite quotes (don’t know the source): “we can either protect the past from the future, or protect the future from the past”.
- platinumrad 6y ago
  It's interesting that you mention immigration and intermarriage because if your press Tibetan and Uighur activists, or look at their more private communications rather than their press releases, miscegenation is frequently at the forefront of their concerns (as tends to be the case when a predominantly male group perceives itself to be losing status, e.g. poorer white men in the west). Outside of the wealthy cosmopolitan west, views toward intermarriage tend to be extremely illiberal.
- bobbyz 6y ago
  Just another way for criminals to excuse themselves of their crimes. Imagine if you said this to a black person in the context of slavery
- chillacy 6y ago
  True, I see the future as being coercion through soft power: e.g. people want to come to America because it has attractive political freedom, economic strength, and cultural capital. In this world, cultures built around immigration end up changing themselves to better compete for people. e.g. the US had to undergo civil rights reforms in the 60s and expand access to all as the USSR looked increasingly attractive to those traditionally left out.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > Coercion is not the only option. Do you have examples of those alternatives, or are they theoretical?
sandworm101 6y ago
>> if you go back far enough we all have a great^N parent who was in this situation. 'Everyone is a victim' is a cop out. The fact that some ancestor of mine was probably conquered by vikings doesn't mean that I shouldn't criticize china for doing the same thing today. Nor do I feel like a conqueror because some other ancestor was one of those vikings. Look to the deep past for lessons. Don't point to the deep past as justification for horrible actions today.
- jtdev 6y ago
  Not to mention, China can’t seem to stop at simply owning the land, they want to wipe these regions and people of their culture and heritage.
  - jtdev 6y ago
    Why the downvotes? Is the CCP lurking here too?
    - dang 6y ago
      This comment breaks more than one of the HN guidelines. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here.
  - ddoolin 6y ago
    I don't know why you're getting downvoted, there is some evidence to suggest this, such as reports of them sending Han men to replace Uighur men in their homes after they've been sent to prison camps.
- heavenlyblue 6y ago
  The fact that you criticise someone doesn’t make you right though. It’s just a fact that every single empire in history ended up with a society which hated the conquests only to be conquered by another, less ethically-concerned nation. It’s easy to judge when you are in a privileged position, however the reason you do that is because you already made someone else pay the price of the externalities of your champagne pacifism. Basically you have this ethical idea that war is bad, but you provide no solution as to how to make today’s poor people reach the same level of education and plenty without giving them the means to conquer you politically, economically or by the means of warfare.

chmod600 6y ago

"I’ve come to an uneasy acceptance of the fact that we’re all the conquerors and the conquered." We all have to accept the past. We don't need to accept that the future will be the same. There are many ways that different areas and cultures can share an assimilate. Trade, travel, multilingualism, federations, mutually-agreed democratic annexation, shared constitutions, diplomacy, immigration, intermarriage, etc. Coercion is not the only option.

jtdev 6y ago
One of my favorite quotes (don’t know the source): “we can either protect the past from the future, or protect the future from the past”.
platinumrad 6y ago
It's interesting that you mention immigration and intermarriage because if your press Tibetan and Uighur activists, or look at their more private communications rather than their press releases, miscegenation is frequently at the forefront of their concerns (as tends to be the case when a predominantly male group perceives itself to be losing status, e.g. poorer white men in the west). Outside of the wealthy cosmopolitan west, views toward intermarriage tend to be extremely illiberal.
bobbyz 6y ago
Just another way for criminals to excuse themselves of their crimes. Imagine if you said this to a black person in the context of slavery
chillacy 6y ago
True, I see the future as being coercion through soft power: e.g. people want to come to America because it has attractive political freedom, economic strength, and cultural capital. In this world, cultures built around immigration end up changing themselves to better compete for people. e.g. the US had to undergo civil rights reforms in the 60s and expand access to all as the USSR looked increasingly attractive to those traditionally left out.
luckylion 6y ago
> Coercion is not the only option. Do you have examples of those alternatives, or are they theoretical?

sandworm101 6y ago

>> if you go back far enough we all have a great^N parent who was in this situation. 'Everyone is a victim' is a cop out. The fact that some ancestor of mine was probably conquered by vikings doesn't mean that I shouldn't criticize china for doing the same thing today. Nor do I feel like a conqueror because some other ancestor was one of those vikings. Look to the deep past for lessons. Don't point to the deep past as justification for horrible actions today.

jtdev 6y ago
Not to mention, China can’t seem to stop at simply owning the land, they want to wipe these regions and people of their culture and heritage.
- jtdev 6y ago
  Why the downvotes? Is the CCP lurking here too?
  - dang 6y ago
    This comment breaks more than one of the HN guidelines. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here.
- ddoolin 6y ago
  I don't know why you're getting downvoted, there is some evidence to suggest this, such as reports of them sending Han men to replace Uighur men in their homes after they've been sent to prison camps.
heavenlyblue 6y ago
The fact that you criticise someone doesn’t make you right though. It’s just a fact that every single empire in history ended up with a society which hated the conquests only to be conquered by another, less ethically-concerned nation. It’s easy to judge when you are in a privileged position, however the reason you do that is because you already made someone else pay the price of the externalities of your champagne pacifism. Basically you have this ethical idea that war is bad, but you provide no solution as to how to make today’s poor people reach the same level of education and plenty without giving them the means to conquer you politically, economically or by the means of warfare.