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Remote work is not a catchall. I live in a 400 sq/ft apartment. My ISP charges 250 a month for gigabyte speeds. I have nowhere to go and all outlets for me to w

Remote work is not a catchall. I live in a 400 sq/ft apartment. My ISP charges 250 a month for gigabyte speeds. I have nowhere to go and all outlets for me to work somewhere else are primarily closed. Furthermore, I have just started my career, all those networking opportunities which help you find your next job have been debilitated. I am sure there is a place for a hybrid option but celebrating remote as the future discourages me to enter the field.

dijit 6y ago
Depends on what you’re doing I guess. I would not be so defeatist if you’re working in technology. IRC/Slack/Discord communities are far better than even the best in-person networking event. There are even job channels on some chat communities. Though the age of the forum is dead.
- ProjectBarks 6y ago
  I have to disagree. IRC/Slack/Discord only add to potential distractions. I have to have my phone near me for two factor auth but plagued by notifications from these communities. Hackathons have been a huge point of my community engagement; however, online hackathons are only a shadow of their in-person counterparts. Not arguing there is not technological enhancement. Think about how many services have had to deploy fully online services that were holdouts from the internet age. My school's club has been able to invite interesting hosts from around the globe because we are already meeting digitally. Remote/online has its strong-suits I just hate how much absolutism there is in these discussions.
  - dijit 6y ago
    Obviously I disagree, but since you got to say your bit- I’d like to rebut. I run an IRC network, I’ve hired people from my IRC network, you choose your own level of involvement. (And your own level of notification. I know the default in slack and discord is aggressive and designed to push more engagement but it is configurable) As it stands there are many people who are absolutely not “distracted” by it, most do not get notifications at all, but usually if you did get a notification it would be because someone said your name explicitly. Most people tend to read up when they feel like it and respond when they feel like it. I also don’t like absolutism but the OP sounds absolutely defeated and for no reason other than they seem unaware that these communities exist and in my experience have given me better experiences than in person “networking” meetings. Unless I’m already friends, meeting people at conferences is often not as valuable as meeting them on IRC.
    - ProjectBarks 6y ago
      What you are saying has some truth. Maybe I am not involved in the right communities. I will see what communities are out there and where to find them.
      - specialist 6y ago
        Maybe start your own clubs. I've always been more Groucho Marx than not, eg wouldn't be a member of a club that would have me as a member. A more positive phrasing: Find your own tribe. I started a design patterns book study group +25 yo that's still going. When I was doing activism, I had a hard time fitting in. Politics (and people) suck. So I started a new group. I've participated in many other groups that were technical, volunteering, political. There's often at least one person that I connect with, making the effort worthwhile.
- ineedasername 6y ago
  I think the age of the forum has simply evolved into two extremes. As I see it, forums as basically just a public-facing venue for having threaded discussions. In that broader sense, we have macro forums on the scale of Reddit, and even Twitter, thought its content format/ui drifts much further way from traditional forums than something like Reddit. Then on the micro scale we have forums like individual users' Facebook and Facebook communities. So as with most things internet over the last 15 years, its evolved from having many many small scale offerings, to a very few massive corporations that ate everything else.
ghaff 6y ago
I'm sure most companies will be some degree of hybrid and keep their offices. That said, I expect you'll see a lot more flexibility with people coming in just some of the time, probably a lot of hot-desking, and probably less general reliance on always getting together physically.
mrgordon 6y ago
Now you can move somewhere with a bigger apartment with cheap Internet. In-person networking is definitely convenient but, as the other poster says, there are significant virtual communities for software especially that are far better than going to some meetups. Github, Slack & Discord groups, etc.
- ProjectBarks 6y ago
  I like the area I live. Plus I don't want to "move" or need more space. Remote work only offloads the cost of a workplace on the employee. Buy a larger desk? Check. Buy a better chair? Check. Spend more time working since there is no psychological difference between relax and work time? Check.
  - Grazester 6y ago
    > Spend more time working since there is no psychological difference between relax and work time? Check. Yes. This is unfortunately happening to me now
  - mathieuh 6y ago
    I hope that when governments around the world realise that WFH is going to become the norm for a large number of people they will adjust tax laws to allow write-offs where applicable. Since April this year in the UK we can get up to £6 per week written off business expenses incurred as a result of WFH. Of course, they may go the opposite direction to encourage people back into offices so coffee/sandwich shops etc. get more footfall.
    - MiroF 6y ago
      I would like my government to discourage urban sprawl and encourage density, even in a world where WFH becomes a larger norm.
  - chrisjarvis 6y ago
    Oh no you had to buy a chair! I disagree with this sentiment, depending on where you live not commuting for a few weeks has already paid for all these things. And for many who haven't had to pay rent in the Bay Area for the last 6 months the gains are even more pronounced. >Spend more time working since there is no psychological difference between relax and work time? I agree that's an issue but can certainly be mitigated by building good habits around "work" and "not work" time.
gruez 6y ago
>Remote work is not a catchall. I live in a 400 sq/ft apartment. But if you work remote, can't you get a bigger apartment (or even a house) out in the suburbs (or other CoL area)?
- throwaway4715 6y ago
  Many people enjoy living in cities and do not want to move to the suburbs.
- MiroF 6y ago
  Most younger people I know (obviously a biased sample) are strongly anti-suburb
Consultant32452 6y ago
I've been working in the industry for 20 years. I've literally never gotten a job based on someone I knew. I'm sure there's plenty of others who have a different experience, but don't let this get you down.
- treeman79 6y ago
  20 year as well. Only once did I get a job because I knew someone.
- ProjectBarks 6y ago
  I appreciate your wisdom. Outlook is bleak for soon to be new-grads so some of my feelings may be a projection of my interview discouragement. Stats still seem to have me worried... "Referrals account for between 30 and 50% of hires in the US...referrals only made up about 6% of total applications, they resulted in more than a quarter of hires. That’s more than the number hired via online job boards, even though those job hunters accounted for 60% of applications and 40% of interviews." [1] [1] https://outline.com/5L3ezF https://outline.com/5L3ezF
- MiroF 6y ago
  > I've literally never gotten a job based on someone I knew The industry is changing for new entrants, and it is considerably different today.
  - Consultant32452 6y ago
    I've never known anyone who got a job on my team because they had a reference, and I am generally doing the hiring. The closest is someone did an internal transfer because of a reference. Never once for an outside hire.
    - MiroF 6y ago
      Many tech companies in SF/SV you won't get an interview without a referral as a new grad at least.
Grazester 6y ago
Does your remote work require you to be uploading/downloading very large files? I am on a 30 mbit connection and both my wife and I remote work. She is on Zoom calls all day long and I stream music and youtube without an issue, while maintaining a latency free remote connection to my desktop in the office.
specialist 6y ago
That sucks. I'm sorry. The only semi-constructive thing I can say is "This too shall pass." In 1998, at 18 years old, I was literally the boy in the bubble, living in forced isolation for over a year. Atypically, I was also very extroverted. I was extremely fortunate to have access to dial up modems. So between CompuServe, and starting my own BBS network, I cobbled together a social life and some income publishing my own shareware. It sucked. But it was also awesome. Those online relationships were just about the best I've ever had. More like penpals than drinking buddies. Alas, nothing is permanent, and I was eager to return to the real world. As for the environmental noise, I'm sure you've investigated noise canceling headphones, white noise machines, and maybe even noise dampening acoustic foam on the walls. Noise pollution is terrible. Especially if you're sensitive, like my sweetie. I hope you can find a corner in the basement, or open area on the roof, or something. The noise in our prior condo was terrible, driving my sweetie insane. Our neighborhood had gotten popular. So much new construction, new roof top open bar across the street, 3:00am deliveries in alley below our bedroom window, etc. There was literally was no peace. If you're working remote any way, maybe you can peace out somewhere else. Anywhere with broadband and strong coffee.
- ProjectBarks 6y ago
  Quite the entry into the field I'd say! I appreciate the sentiment. Probably need to stay away from Blind and other headline generator websites.
josefresco 6y ago
> My ISP charges 250 a month for gigabyte speeds I don't even have the option for "gigabyte speeds" - consider yourself lucky.
- ProjectBarks 6y ago
  Ahh I love oligopolies.
sosborn 6y ago
> all those networking opportunities which help you find your next job have been debilitated. Well, not all of them. Do your job well while being someone fun to work with. People will remember that, especially the ones in your age group. The people I worked with when I was younger are now in positions where they can let me know about jobs and recommend me for them, and I am in that position too for them. This situation is not great, but keep moving forward as best as you can.
- acituan 6y ago
  > Do your job well while being someone fun to work with “It is not enough that you do your job well, you also need to spend energy to put out an entertaining persona.” is such an Americanism that creates a game theoretic layer of duplicitous characters on top.
  - sosborn 6y ago
    There is a difference between being fun to work with and being entertaining. Maybe I should have worded it, “be a joy to work with.” Some people are a pleasure to work with, even if they are quiet and shy.
    - acituan 6y ago
      Still sounds like some servile function to evoke positive emotions in others is required. Why doing our jobs is not enough? If everyone is doing their jobs, wouldn’t that be “fun” enough? If not, shouldn’t that be a problem with the job description? This is important because whenever the boundaries are poorly defined, there is room for narcissistic abuse, even if self-inflicted. “Be a joy to work with” could have so many failure modes; the guy who brings up inconvenient truths could be penalized, the useless people pleasers can get ahead. The idea could work to Marie Kondo one’s clothes, but I feel like standards should be different for humans.
      - sosborn 6y ago
        I think you are reading way too much into this. There are ways to bring up inconvenient truths without being an asshole, and there are ways to be a pleasure to work with without pandering. People who don't see this are actually the ones that people don't enjoy working with.
WhompingWindows 6y ago
Compared to non-essential fields that are in-person, we are incredibly lucky that computational tasks can be done remotely. It may stink that remote lacks in-person networking, but at least our jobs and salaries continue coming in, unlike dozens of other professions. A lot of "essential" in-person professions never got any hazard pay either, they just took on more inefficiency and more risk for the same pay.
dalbasal 6y ago
Something like remote work is guaranteed to be both good and bad for different people. If this is genuinely the direction we're going, there will be casualties. Lots of them.
- ghaff 6y ago
  I fully expect there will be companies that go back to mostly in-office. And most companies will continue to have an office that people at least can go into. But, what's also almost certainly true, is that different companies and different teams within companies will have vastly different emphasis on in person vs. remote. If you're someone who can't wait to go back into an office pretty much full-time and want to work with others who feel similarly, a lot of companies may not be right for you going forward--given that a mix of remote and in-person pretty much needs to work as if everyone were remote.

dijit 6y ago

Depends on what you’re doing I guess. I would not be so defeatist if you’re working in technology. IRC/Slack/Discord communities are far better than even the best in-person networking event. There are even job channels on some chat communities. Though the age of the forum is dead.

ProjectBarks 6y ago
I have to disagree. IRC/Slack/Discord only add to potential distractions. I have to have my phone near me for two factor auth but plagued by notifications from these communities. Hackathons have been a huge point of my community engagement; however, online hackathons are only a shadow of their in-person counterparts. Not arguing there is not technological enhancement. Think about how many services have had to deploy fully online services that were holdouts from the internet age. My school's club has been able to invite interesting hosts from around the globe because we are already meeting digitally. Remote/online has its strong-suits I just hate how much absolutism there is in these discussions.
- dijit 6y ago
  Obviously I disagree, but since you got to say your bit- I’d like to rebut. I run an IRC network, I’ve hired people from my IRC network, you choose your own level of involvement. (And your own level of notification. I know the default in slack and discord is aggressive and designed to push more engagement but it is configurable) As it stands there are many people who are absolutely not “distracted” by it, most do not get notifications at all, but usually if you did get a notification it would be because someone said your name explicitly. Most people tend to read up when they feel like it and respond when they feel like it. I also don’t like absolutism but the OP sounds absolutely defeated and for no reason other than they seem unaware that these communities exist and in my experience have given me better experiences than in person “networking” meetings. Unless I’m already friends, meeting people at conferences is often not as valuable as meeting them on IRC.
  - ProjectBarks 6y ago
    What you are saying has some truth. Maybe I am not involved in the right communities. I will see what communities are out there and where to find them.
    - specialist 6y ago
      Maybe start your own clubs. I've always been more Groucho Marx than not, eg wouldn't be a member of a club that would have me as a member. A more positive phrasing: Find your own tribe. I started a design patterns book study group +25 yo that's still going. When I was doing activism, I had a hard time fitting in. Politics (and people) suck. So I started a new group. I've participated in many other groups that were technical, volunteering, political. There's often at least one person that I connect with, making the effort worthwhile.
ineedasername 6y ago
I think the age of the forum has simply evolved into two extremes. As I see it, forums as basically just a public-facing venue for having threaded discussions. In that broader sense, we have macro forums on the scale of Reddit, and even Twitter, thought its content format/ui drifts much further way from traditional forums than something like Reddit. Then on the micro scale we have forums like individual users' Facebook and Facebook communities. So as with most things internet over the last 15 years, its evolved from having many many small scale offerings, to a very few massive corporations that ate everything else.

ghaff 6y ago

I'm sure most companies will be some degree of hybrid and keep their offices. That said, I expect you'll see a lot more flexibility with people coming in just some of the time, probably a lot of hot-desking, and probably less general reliance on always getting together physically.

mrgordon 6y ago

Now you can move somewhere with a bigger apartment with cheap Internet. In-person networking is definitely convenient but, as the other poster says, there are significant virtual communities for software especially that are far better than going to some meetups. Github, Slack & Discord groups, etc.

ProjectBarks 6y ago
I like the area I live. Plus I don't want to "move" or need more space. Remote work only offloads the cost of a workplace on the employee. Buy a larger desk? Check. Buy a better chair? Check. Spend more time working since there is no psychological difference between relax and work time? Check.
- Grazester 6y ago
  > Spend more time working since there is no psychological difference between relax and work time? Check. Yes. This is unfortunately happening to me now
- mathieuh 6y ago
  I hope that when governments around the world realise that WFH is going to become the norm for a large number of people they will adjust tax laws to allow write-offs where applicable. Since April this year in the UK we can get up to £6 per week written off business expenses incurred as a result of WFH. Of course, they may go the opposite direction to encourage people back into offices so coffee/sandwich shops etc. get more footfall.
  - MiroF 6y ago
    I would like my government to discourage urban sprawl and encourage density, even in a world where WFH becomes a larger norm.
- chrisjarvis 6y ago
  Oh no you had to buy a chair! I disagree with this sentiment, depending on where you live not commuting for a few weeks has already paid for all these things. And for many who haven't had to pay rent in the Bay Area for the last 6 months the gains are even more pronounced. >Spend more time working since there is no psychological difference between relax and work time? I agree that's an issue but can certainly be mitigated by building good habits around "work" and "not work" time.

gruez 6y ago

>Remote work is not a catchall. I live in a 400 sq/ft apartment. But if you work remote, can't you get a bigger apartment (or even a house) out in the suburbs (or other CoL area)?

throwaway4715 6y ago
Many people enjoy living in cities and do not want to move to the suburbs.
MiroF 6y ago
Most younger people I know (obviously a biased sample) are strongly anti-suburb

Consultant32452 6y ago

I've been working in the industry for 20 years. I've literally never gotten a job based on someone I knew. I'm sure there's plenty of others who have a different experience, but don't let this get you down.

treeman79 6y ago
20 year as well. Only once did I get a job because I knew someone.
ProjectBarks 6y ago
I appreciate your wisdom. Outlook is bleak for soon to be new-grads so some of my feelings may be a projection of my interview discouragement. Stats still seem to have me worried... "Referrals account for between 30 and 50% of hires in the US...referrals only made up about 6% of total applications, they resulted in more than a quarter of hires. That’s more than the number hired via online job boards, even though those job hunters accounted for 60% of applications and 40% of interviews." [1] [1] https://outline.com/5L3ezF https://outline.com/5L3ezF
MiroF 6y ago
> I've literally never gotten a job based on someone I knew The industry is changing for new entrants, and it is considerably different today.
- Consultant32452 6y ago
  I've never known anyone who got a job on my team because they had a reference, and I am generally doing the hiring. The closest is someone did an internal transfer because of a reference. Never once for an outside hire.
  - MiroF 6y ago
    Many tech companies in SF/SV you won't get an interview without a referral as a new grad at least.

Grazester 6y ago

Does your remote work require you to be uploading/downloading very large files? I am on a 30 mbit connection and both my wife and I remote work. She is on Zoom calls all day long and I stream music and youtube without an issue, while maintaining a latency free remote connection to my desktop in the office.

specialist 6y ago

That sucks. I'm sorry. The only semi-constructive thing I can say is "This too shall pass." In 1998, at 18 years old, I was literally the boy in the bubble, living in forced isolation for over a year. Atypically, I was also very extroverted. I was extremely fortunate to have access to dial up modems. So between CompuServe, and starting my own BBS network, I cobbled together a social life and some income publishing my own shareware. It sucked. But it was also awesome. Those online relationships were just about the best I've ever had. More like penpals than drinking buddies. Alas, nothing is permanent, and I was eager to return to the real world. As for the environmental noise, I'm sure you've investigated noise canceling headphones, white noise machines, and maybe even noise dampening acoustic foam on the walls. Noise pollution is terrible. Especially if you're sensitive, like my sweetie. I hope you can find a corner in the basement, or open area on the roof, or something. The noise in our prior condo was terrible, driving my sweetie insane. Our neighborhood had gotten popular. So much new construction, new roof top open bar across the street, 3:00am deliveries in alley below our bedroom window, etc. There was literally was no peace. If you're working remote any way, maybe you can peace out somewhere else. Anywhere with broadband and strong coffee.

ProjectBarks 6y ago
Quite the entry into the field I'd say! I appreciate the sentiment. Probably need to stay away from Blind and other headline generator websites.

josefresco 6y ago

> My ISP charges 250 a month for gigabyte speeds I don't even have the option for "gigabyte speeds" - consider yourself lucky.

ProjectBarks 6y ago
Ahh I love oligopolies.

sosborn 6y ago

> all those networking opportunities which help you find your next job have been debilitated. Well, not all of them. Do your job well while being someone fun to work with. People will remember that, especially the ones in your age group. The people I worked with when I was younger are now in positions where they can let me know about jobs and recommend me for them, and I am in that position too for them. This situation is not great, but keep moving forward as best as you can.

acituan 6y ago
> Do your job well while being someone fun to work with “It is not enough that you do your job well, you also need to spend energy to put out an entertaining persona.” is such an Americanism that creates a game theoretic layer of duplicitous characters on top.
- sosborn 6y ago
  There is a difference between being fun to work with and being entertaining. Maybe I should have worded it, “be a joy to work with.” Some people are a pleasure to work with, even if they are quiet and shy.
  - acituan 6y ago
    Still sounds like some servile function to evoke positive emotions in others is required. Why doing our jobs is not enough? If everyone is doing their jobs, wouldn’t that be “fun” enough? If not, shouldn’t that be a problem with the job description? This is important because whenever the boundaries are poorly defined, there is room for narcissistic abuse, even if self-inflicted. “Be a joy to work with” could have so many failure modes; the guy who brings up inconvenient truths could be penalized, the useless people pleasers can get ahead. The idea could work to Marie Kondo one’s clothes, but I feel like standards should be different for humans.
    - sosborn 6y ago
      I think you are reading way too much into this. There are ways to bring up inconvenient truths without being an asshole, and there are ways to be a pleasure to work with without pandering. People who don't see this are actually the ones that people don't enjoy working with.

WhompingWindows 6y ago

Compared to non-essential fields that are in-person, we are incredibly lucky that computational tasks can be done remotely. It may stink that remote lacks in-person networking, but at least our jobs and salaries continue coming in, unlike dozens of other professions. A lot of "essential" in-person professions never got any hazard pay either, they just took on more inefficiency and more risk for the same pay.

dalbasal 6y ago

Something like remote work is guaranteed to be both good and bad for different people. If this is genuinely the direction we're going, there will be casualties. Lots of them.

ghaff 6y ago
I fully expect there will be companies that go back to mostly in-office. And most companies will continue to have an office that people at least can go into. But, what's also almost certainly true, is that different companies and different teams within companies will have vastly different emphasis on in person vs. remote. If you're someone who can't wait to go back into an office pretty much full-time and want to work with others who feel similarly, a lot of companies may not be right for you going forward--given that a mix of remote and in-person pretty much needs to work as if everyone were remote.