8 ms·

How India's ancient caste system is ruining lives in Silicon Valley

125 points by amrrs 6y ago

moonbug 6y ago
Racism? In Silicon Valley?
- wow_yes 6y ago
  Racism is power + prejudice, and POCs like Indians have no power in the US. What's going on here is unfortunate but nowhere near a real issue, and certainly not racism.
  - carabiner 6y ago
    This never made sense to me. If Donald Trump is locked up in a Chinese jail and powerless, he's no longer racist? A KKK member surrounded by a group of armed black police officers is not racist?
    - metalliqaz 6y ago
      that's because it's a nonsense definition intended to keep the culture battle raging even after progress is made
      - tasogare 6y ago
        Exactly. Some people are trying hard to change the definition of racism so that when people A harm or discriminat people B on a racial basis it’s supposedly not racist for some given A and some given B.
      - rbecker 6y ago
        It's the definition used by specialists in the field. You wouldn't want to be anti-science by rejecting it, would you?
        liability 6y ago
        Please leave the sardonic shitposting on reddit. This discussion deserves better.
        levosmetalo 6y ago
        ... and here we have a Supremacist racist shitting on redditors. How classy.
  - duxup 6y ago
    "nowhere near a real issue" What does that mean? Is what described in the article "nowhere near a real issue"?
  - _0ffh 6y ago
    No it's not. Never was, never will be. This racist attempt to redefine what the term means will not stand as long as there are enough freedom-minded people around.
  - toast0 6y ago
    Sure, there's a technical issue of is a caste the same as a race. But for all intents and purposes, the situation is the same. The employee had bad outcomes alledgedly because people with power (his managers) were prejudiced against him because of who his parents were.
    - acephal 6y ago
      It still blows my mind that people think race in America isn't a caste system. It absolutely is a caste system.
    - golemotron 6y ago
      Wait until it's common knowledge that political disposition is heritable.
  - tuesdayrain 6y ago
    It's shocking to me how people can suggest with a straight face that certain races can't be racist. You should be able to read something and determine if it's racist by the intended message. It shouldn't be a requirement to find out who said it and how much power that person has. This conscious effort by some sociologists to redefine "racism" instead of creating a new term for "power + prejudice" is yet another example that they are more interested in promoting an agenda than doing real science.
  - eweise 6y ago
    Did you try looking in the dictionary for the word 'racism'? https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism
einszwei 6y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552047 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552047 Previous discussion in last 24 hours
nikeshm 6y ago
Man, this is really hard to stomach as a first generation Indian-American. I'm American, but my parents are distinctly not; the ideas of caste discrimination certainly come up often (we're Brahmin, FWIW, so you might imagine in what context these ideas come up). One hopeful thought I can add is that I've never once talked to a American-born Indian-American about caste, except to ridicule it as a horrific system of discrimination. There's lots of Indian-born American citizens, which might contribute to the issue; I hope the institution of caste completely vanishes in America as our ethnic group assimilates into broader American society over the next few generations.
- specialist 6y ago
  American born Swedish Americans are mostly oblivious to Sweden's caste system. So I'd say your optimism is well placed.
  - _rutinerad 6y ago
    Most Swedes are also oblivious to Sweden’s “caste system”, in my experience of living in Sweden my whole life.
princevegeta89 6y ago
This is probably a reflection of the recent Cisco scumbaggery committed by two castist idiots that discriminated a fellow employee who was allegedly reporting to them. On the other hand, as an Indian myself, I've seen some really backward idiots spread all over America that try to reinforce the notion of caste and propagate that idea to others. Most of them are really uncivilized with narrow and closed minds. I know for one that the idea of "caste" makes no sense, at least not anymore. In India there is still a lot of mess and trouble that happens because of it, which only pulls the country back in terms of development, but when people, after setting foot in America which is a much forward country still do not get enlightened, it is beyond me. I personally have taken a pledge to spread the word against "caste" and Caste discrimination here. I was able to change a few minds among my friends which I'm happy about. To anyone reading this, please enlighten yourself and help others.
- ausjke 6y ago
  I know caste is for historical reasons, but is there some constitution amendment in India to do away with Caste for the whole country? considering India claims to be the largest democratic country on earth, if Caste is not strongly forbidden it can last forever and yes, it will be here in USA where more Indians are either working here, or acting as management roles these days. It's bad.
  - princevegeta89 6y ago
    There is not one yet afaik. The problem is the majority of people aren't ok with the removal - they want special rights, reservations, and treatment. The sheer power of all these people combined will overthrow any decision made by the government in that direction. These people aren't stupid but just uninformed/uneducated. It then goes into politics - the leaders are way too dumb or just don't care. They fail to spread awareness to anyone whatsoever.
    - l8again 6y ago
      To be clear, Article 15 and 17 absolutely prohibits any discrimination based on caste and abolishes untouchability respectively. [1] The issue is that the culture still imbues caste system. All you have to do is peruse the matrimonial or see the popular netflix show Indian Matchmaking to get an idea. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20120402064301/http://lawmin.nic.in/olwing/coi/coi-english/coi-indexenglish.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20120402064301/http://lawmin.nic...
iaw 6y ago
Pertinent John Doe line 'When John Doe indicated to Cisco's human resources team that he wanted to file a complaint, he was allegedly told by the department that "caste discrimination was not unlawful".' Pertinent Cisco line 'We have robust processes to report and investigate concerns raised by employees which were followed in this case dating back to 2016, and have determined we were fully in compliance with all laws as well as our own policies.' So, in my reading, Cisco's HR lawyers decided Caste discrimination was legal and easier to let continue than shake the tree under their managers.
- raverbashing 6y ago
  > Cisco's HR lawyers decided Caste discrimination was legal Sounds like a fun point to make over a disbarment proceedings, because that's what I think they should be subject to.
  - toast0 6y ago
    From a human perspective, caste discrimination is really the same thing as race discrimination, discrimination based on your ancestry. I'm pretty sure caste discrimination is unlawful in India (other than their reservation system of affirmative action). However, I don't believe caste is in legislation as a protected class in California or at the US federal level, nor do I believe there is judicial action on this. To me, that says, caste discrimination in the US is lawful and reprehensible. A lawyer should not be disbarred for making a determination that seems to be accurate.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - raverbashing 6y ago
      Ok maybe disbarment is too heavy But I'd say it would be not too hard to argue that it would fit race or national origin discrimination But regardless of the legality of it, it is extremely poor judgement to allow such discrimination in place of work.
- 6y ago
HarryHirsch 6y ago
At-will employment probably doesn't help the issue. With proper labour protections, the low-caste guy can tell the Brahmin to go fuck himself, but good luck without unions and on H1-B.
thecleaner 6y ago
Why is this getting re-posted ?
gabereiser 6y ago
I worked for an Indian-based contracting company for a few years. I witnessed this first hand. I believe every word in this story.
hansdieter1337 6y ago
I see this everyday (before COVID) when my Indian colleagues go to lunch but don’t ask that one guy bc he’s from a lower cast.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
nanna 6y ago
A major conflict recently broke out in my (uk, academic) organisation between two colleagues originally from India. The aggressiveness of it really stunned everyone, especially as we thought they were friends. Turns out that none of us had recognised the caste difference between them, which was how the one from a lower caste explained it. It hasn't been resolved. If the one from the upper caste was white and the other black, it would certainly have been swiftly and directly resolved. I don't really know what to do.
egypturnash 6y ago
I find myself wondering why someone from one of the lowest castes does not simply claim to not be that when they are halfway across the world from the society that has a tradition of maintaining this? I can assume there’s a bunch of subtle class signaling that people do reflexively (speech patterns, dress preferences, whatever, I mean I live in a city with like five different distinct dialects that immediately tell a local what social stratum someone is from), as well as maybe an element of defiant “fuck you I am proud to be someone from the lowest caste who can run rings around your Useless Aristocrat caste ass”. Possibly some distinctive physical features due to centuries of it being forbidden to marry across caste lines? I apologize if any of these questions are offensive, I know fuck-all about this. I also know it ain’t your job to explain all of this to my white American ass, a quick link to a good Caste 101 For Stupid Americans would be fine :)
- notsureaboutpg 6y ago
  All of what you said is a tell plus often names are a tell.
- bolasanibk 6y ago
  At least for Indians, names can be an effective signal for caste.
- l8again 6y ago
  Fair question. Your last name is a clear give away of your caste in most cases. There may be others, but I am not sure of what they may be.
  - compsciphd 6y ago
    is it difficult for it to be changed when you immigrate to the US? As a simple example: look at people from eastern europe that "americanized" their names when they came over from the old country at the end of the 19th/beginning of the 20th century.
    - Bodhisattya 6y ago
hnsri 6y ago
I can't reduce anyone's experience and don't know about this specific situation. Cisco is an American company and while I worked there in San Jose, I didn't encounter any notion of birth-based caste discrimination, which in any case I and others would have opposed resolutely, simply because we were in the "land of the free". Even in India, Dalits are empowered by law to report against discrimination and avail of Indian equivalent of affirmative action. Their situation, while not perfect, has improved considerably over the several few decades. That being said, there may be some anachronistic idiots in responsible positions of power who could have caused this. I hope that courts investigate and reach the right conclusion and nip this from the root and Cisco, if involved, learns the right lessons.
dilippkumar 6y ago
> Iyer was a graduate of the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT), and grew up in Bombay as an upper-caste Indian. He also completed his PhD at Stanford, founded two companies that were both acquired by Cisco, and has been named MIT Innovator of the year. A man of science and reason, and a person who places a premium on ideas, you would imagine. > Much like Iyer, John Doe also graduated from IIT. > The lawsuit alleges that the upper-caste Iyer recognised John Doe and instantly began ridiculing him in front of all the other higher-caste Indian employees at Cisco, saying that John Doe was a Dalit and only got into the engineering school because of affirmative action, which India implemented in 1980 under the then-Prime Minister VP Singh. This behavior is absolutely not acceptable. I want to provide some context to avoid the narrative being dragged into areas that are unproductive. IITs are like the Ivy League Universities in India. Admissions into IIT are based on a notoriously competitive entrance exam - it’s common for people to take a multiple year break after high school just to prepare for this exam. For those who end up scoring high enough to get into the IIT, it ends up being the defining achievement of their lives. There’s also an elitist attitude that plagues many IIT graduates. Wrap your head around the idea that there are dating/match making services that are exclusive to IIT graduates. It’s pretty bad. The implementation details of the Indian affirmative action programs are such that underrepresented communities are ranked separately from the rest. On these lists, the competition is less fierce. There is a lot of resentment around this from multiple sides - it’s sort of similar to the recent lawsuits against Harvard for discriminating against Asians. For various reasons, Brahmins have a multigenerational advantages when taking the IIT entrance exams. They are over represented in the top 500 scores for example. I say all this because it’s important to understand the nuances of India’s cultural problems. It looks similar to Racism in America at first glance, but on a closer look, it’s a very different (and a more serious) problem in many ways.
one2know 6y ago
It's 100% race war out there. HR women and execs are fighting against white males. Indian and chinese managers are fighting against non-Indian, wrong caste, and non-Chinese. Why is this flagged and downvoted? Censorship is not going to change what everyone can see as reality.
arvindkumarc 6y ago
"Last name" of any person across the world has something to do with. The argument to identify two ppl with same firstname stands the same for both first and last names combined. Countries like India, carry the caste names as the last names. Abolishing that alone is solving only one part of the problem. The right fix is to make these down-trodden to tread back what they lost over decades (even centuries). These lawsuits to punish an isolated event will stop nothing.

125 points by amrrs 6y ago

moonbug 6y ago

Racism? In Silicon Valley?

wow_yes 6y ago
Racism is power + prejudice, and POCs like Indians have no power in the US. What's going on here is unfortunate but nowhere near a real issue, and certainly not racism.
- carabiner 6y ago
  This never made sense to me. If Donald Trump is locked up in a Chinese jail and powerless, he's no longer racist? A KKK member surrounded by a group of armed black police officers is not racist?
  - metalliqaz 6y ago
    that's because it's a nonsense definition intended to keep the culture battle raging even after progress is made
    - tasogare 6y ago
      Exactly. Some people are trying hard to change the definition of racism so that when people A harm or discriminat people B on a racial basis it’s supposedly not racist for some given A and some given B.
    - rbecker 6y ago
      It's the definition used by specialists in the field. You wouldn't want to be anti-science by rejecting it, would you?
      - liability 6y ago
        Please leave the sardonic shitposting on reddit. This discussion deserves better.
        levosmetalo 6y ago
        ... and here we have a Supremacist racist shitting on redditors. How classy.
- duxup 6y ago
  "nowhere near a real issue" What does that mean? Is what described in the article "nowhere near a real issue"?
- _0ffh 6y ago
  No it's not. Never was, never will be. This racist attempt to redefine what the term means will not stand as long as there are enough freedom-minded people around.
- toast0 6y ago
  Sure, there's a technical issue of is a caste the same as a race. But for all intents and purposes, the situation is the same. The employee had bad outcomes alledgedly because people with power (his managers) were prejudiced against him because of who his parents were.
  - acephal 6y ago
    It still blows my mind that people think race in America isn't a caste system. It absolutely is a caste system.
  - golemotron 6y ago
    Wait until it's common knowledge that political disposition is heritable.
- tuesdayrain 6y ago
  It's shocking to me how people can suggest with a straight face that certain races can't be racist. You should be able to read something and determine if it's racist by the intended message. It shouldn't be a requirement to find out who said it and how much power that person has. This conscious effort by some sociologists to redefine "racism" instead of creating a new term for "power + prejudice" is yet another example that they are more interested in promoting an agenda than doing real science.
- eweise 6y ago
  Did you try looking in the dictionary for the word 'racism'? https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

einszwei 6y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552047 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552047 Previous discussion in last 24 hours

nikeshm 6y ago

Man, this is really hard to stomach as a first generation Indian-American. I'm American, but my parents are distinctly not; the ideas of caste discrimination certainly come up often (we're Brahmin, FWIW, so you might imagine in what context these ideas come up). One hopeful thought I can add is that I've never once talked to a American-born Indian-American about caste, except to ridicule it as a horrific system of discrimination. There's lots of Indian-born American citizens, which might contribute to the issue; I hope the institution of caste completely vanishes in America as our ethnic group assimilates into broader American society over the next few generations.

specialist 6y ago
American born Swedish Americans are mostly oblivious to Sweden's caste system. So I'd say your optimism is well placed.
- _rutinerad 6y ago
  Most Swedes are also oblivious to Sweden’s “caste system”, in my experience of living in Sweden my whole life.

princevegeta89 6y ago

This is probably a reflection of the recent Cisco scumbaggery committed by two castist idiots that discriminated a fellow employee who was allegedly reporting to them. On the other hand, as an Indian myself, I've seen some really backward idiots spread all over America that try to reinforce the notion of caste and propagate that idea to others. Most of them are really uncivilized with narrow and closed minds. I know for one that the idea of "caste" makes no sense, at least not anymore. In India there is still a lot of mess and trouble that happens because of it, which only pulls the country back in terms of development, but when people, after setting foot in America which is a much forward country still do not get enlightened, it is beyond me. I personally have taken a pledge to spread the word against "caste" and Caste discrimination here. I was able to change a few minds among my friends which I'm happy about. To anyone reading this, please enlighten yourself and help others.

ausjke 6y ago
I know caste is for historical reasons, but is there some constitution amendment in India to do away with Caste for the whole country? considering India claims to be the largest democratic country on earth, if Caste is not strongly forbidden it can last forever and yes, it will be here in USA where more Indians are either working here, or acting as management roles these days. It's bad.
- princevegeta89 6y ago
  There is not one yet afaik. The problem is the majority of people aren't ok with the removal - they want special rights, reservations, and treatment. The sheer power of all these people combined will overthrow any decision made by the government in that direction. These people aren't stupid but just uninformed/uneducated. It then goes into politics - the leaders are way too dumb or just don't care. They fail to spread awareness to anyone whatsoever.
  - l8again 6y ago
    To be clear, Article 15 and 17 absolutely prohibits any discrimination based on caste and abolishes untouchability respectively. [1] The issue is that the culture still imbues caste system. All you have to do is peruse the matrimonial or see the popular netflix show Indian Matchmaking to get an idea. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20120402064301/http://lawmin.nic.in/olwing/coi/coi-english/coi-indexenglish.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20120402064301/http://lawmin.nic...

iaw 6y ago

Pertinent John Doe line 'When John Doe indicated to Cisco's human resources team that he wanted to file a complaint, he was allegedly told by the department that "caste discrimination was not unlawful".' Pertinent Cisco line 'We have robust processes to report and investigate concerns raised by employees which were followed in this case dating back to 2016, and have determined we were fully in compliance with all laws as well as our own policies.' So, in my reading, Cisco's HR lawyers decided Caste discrimination was legal and easier to let continue than shake the tree under their managers.

raverbashing 6y ago
> Cisco's HR lawyers decided Caste discrimination was legal Sounds like a fun point to make over a disbarment proceedings, because that's what I think they should be subject to.
- toast0 6y ago
  From a human perspective, caste discrimination is really the same thing as race discrimination, discrimination based on your ancestry. I'm pretty sure caste discrimination is unlawful in India (other than their reservation system of affirmative action). However, I don't believe caste is in legislation as a protected class in California or at the US federal level, nor do I believe there is judicial action on this. To me, that says, caste discrimination in the US is lawful and reprehensible. A lawyer should not be disbarred for making a determination that seems to be accurate.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - raverbashing 6y ago
    Ok maybe disbarment is too heavy But I'd say it would be not too hard to argue that it would fit race or national origin discrimination But regardless of the legality of it, it is extremely poor judgement to allow such discrimination in place of work.
6y ago

HarryHirsch 6y ago

At-will employment probably doesn't help the issue. With proper labour protections, the low-caste guy can tell the Brahmin to go fuck himself, but good luck without unions and on H1-B.

thecleaner 6y ago

Why is this getting re-posted ?

gabereiser 6y ago

I worked for an Indian-based contracting company for a few years. I witnessed this first hand. I believe every word in this story.

hansdieter1337 6y ago

I see this everyday (before COVID) when my Indian colleagues go to lunch but don’t ask that one guy bc he’s from a lower cast.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

nanna 6y ago

A major conflict recently broke out in my (uk, academic) organisation between two colleagues originally from India. The aggressiveness of it really stunned everyone, especially as we thought they were friends. Turns out that none of us had recognised the caste difference between them, which was how the one from a lower caste explained it. It hasn't been resolved. If the one from the upper caste was white and the other black, it would certainly have been swiftly and directly resolved. I don't really know what to do.

egypturnash 6y ago

I find myself wondering why someone from one of the lowest castes does not simply claim to not be that when they are halfway across the world from the society that has a tradition of maintaining this? I can assume there’s a bunch of subtle class signaling that people do reflexively (speech patterns, dress preferences, whatever, I mean I live in a city with like five different distinct dialects that immediately tell a local what social stratum someone is from), as well as maybe an element of defiant “fuck you I am proud to be someone from the lowest caste who can run rings around your Useless Aristocrat caste ass”. Possibly some distinctive physical features due to centuries of it being forbidden to marry across caste lines? I apologize if any of these questions are offensive, I know fuck-all about this. I also know it ain’t your job to explain all of this to my white American ass, a quick link to a good Caste 101 For Stupid Americans would be fine :)

notsureaboutpg 6y ago
All of what you said is a tell plus often names are a tell.
bolasanibk 6y ago
At least for Indians, names can be an effective signal for caste.
l8again 6y ago
Fair question. Your last name is a clear give away of your caste in most cases. There may be others, but I am not sure of what they may be.
- compsciphd 6y ago
  is it difficult for it to be changed when you immigrate to the US? As a simple example: look at people from eastern europe that "americanized" their names when they came over from the old country at the end of the 19th/beginning of the 20th century.
  - Bodhisattya 6y ago

hnsri 6y ago

I can't reduce anyone's experience and don't know about this specific situation. Cisco is an American company and while I worked there in San Jose, I didn't encounter any notion of birth-based caste discrimination, which in any case I and others would have opposed resolutely, simply because we were in the "land of the free". Even in India, Dalits are empowered by law to report against discrimination and avail of Indian equivalent of affirmative action. Their situation, while not perfect, has improved considerably over the several few decades. That being said, there may be some anachronistic idiots in responsible positions of power who could have caused this. I hope that courts investigate and reach the right conclusion and nip this from the root and Cisco, if involved, learns the right lessons.

dilippkumar 6y ago

> Iyer was a graduate of the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT), and grew up in Bombay as an upper-caste Indian. He also completed his PhD at Stanford, founded two companies that were both acquired by Cisco, and has been named MIT Innovator of the year. A man of science and reason, and a person who places a premium on ideas, you would imagine. > Much like Iyer, John Doe also graduated from IIT. > The lawsuit alleges that the upper-caste Iyer recognised John Doe and instantly began ridiculing him in front of all the other higher-caste Indian employees at Cisco, saying that John Doe was a Dalit and only got into the engineering school because of affirmative action, which India implemented in 1980 under the then-Prime Minister VP Singh. This behavior is absolutely not acceptable. I want to provide some context to avoid the narrative being dragged into areas that are unproductive. IITs are like the Ivy League Universities in India. Admissions into IIT are based on a notoriously competitive entrance exam - it’s common for people to take a multiple year break after high school just to prepare for this exam. For those who end up scoring high enough to get into the IIT, it ends up being the defining achievement of their lives. There’s also an elitist attitude that plagues many IIT graduates. Wrap your head around the idea that there are dating/match making services that are exclusive to IIT graduates. It’s pretty bad. The implementation details of the Indian affirmative action programs are such that underrepresented communities are ranked separately from the rest. On these lists, the competition is less fierce. There is a lot of resentment around this from multiple sides - it’s sort of similar to the recent lawsuits against Harvard for discriminating against Asians. For various reasons, Brahmins have a multigenerational advantages when taking the IIT entrance exams. They are over represented in the top 500 scores for example. I say all this because it’s important to understand the nuances of India’s cultural problems. It looks similar to Racism in America at first glance, but on a closer look, it’s a very different (and a more serious) problem in many ways.

one2know 6y ago

It's 100% race war out there. HR women and execs are fighting against white males. Indian and chinese managers are fighting against non-Indian, wrong caste, and non-Chinese. Why is this flagged and downvoted? Censorship is not going to change what everyone can see as reality.

arvindkumarc 6y ago

"Last name" of any person across the world has something to do with. The argument to identify two ppl with same firstname stands the same for both first and last names combined. Countries like India, carry the caste names as the last names. Abolishing that alone is solving only one part of the problem. The right fix is to make these down-trodden to tread back what they lost over decades (even centuries). These lawsuits to punish an isolated event will stop nothing.