3 ms·

"either deterministic or random" is a possibly dangerous dichotomy. Some things are neither determined nor random, in the "arbitrary" sense of the term. A chil

"either deterministic or random" is a possibly dangerous dichotomy. Some things are neither determined nor random, in the "arbitrary" sense of the term. A child that grows up in a musical household is more likely to become a musician. That's neither random nor determined. In populations, or over repeated instances, these can resolve to near deterministic results. At the individual level, they are more random seeming.

_0ffh 6y ago
Don't know about the danger in there, but what else would you want to add to the mix besides determinism and randomness? I don't know of anything else that could possibly have any influence, unless you want to go supernatural.
- AgentMatt 6y ago
  I share the sentiment of the parent with regards to "either deterministic or random" sounding off to me. I wanted to propose "stochastic" as a better term, but apparently "random" and "stochastic" are synonyms. [1] What it comes down to is that "random" to me has a connotation of arbitrary, unpredictable. Whereas "stochastic" to me suggests a deterministic process with random influences. So maybe the sentiment is better expressed as making sure it is clear that deterministic and random are the two extremes of a continuum, rather than an either/or distinction. [1] https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/114373/whats-the-difference-between-stochastic-and-random https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/114373/whats-the-di...
  - dalbasal 6y ago
    That is what I meant, which is why I said "in the arbitrary sense." I think our language is lacking here. In technical terms, neither random nor stochastic imply evenly distributed. In casual conversation, "random" does. "Emergent" may be a better term for what I meant. Randomness (in the casual sense) is an ingredient in a stochastic process leading to non-random, even effectively deterministic results. The comment I was replying to: "the inputs that drive that subjective feeling are still either deterministic or random." The ingredients which lead someone to suddenly sing a son apropos of nothing (seemingly random/arbitrary) are the same as those leading someone to pull their finger away from a flame... seemingly deterministic.
- dalbasal 6y ago
  Is evolution by natural selection deterministic or random?
  - s1artibartfast 6y ago
    Both. Evolution by natural selection is composed of several processes and events, some of which are random, some of which are deterministic.
    - dalbasal 6y ago
      ...That was an example in a context re: free will. Determinism vs randomness dichotomy. Evolution is not distinctly either, which is my point.
      - s1artibartfast 6y ago
        Free will, by definition, can be neither deterministic or random, which is very different.
ses1984 6y ago
In populations, children who grow up in musical households are more likely to become musicians. That is neither random nor determined. A particular child growing up to be a musician, is either random or determined. Maybe each child in a population is determined, or random, but at least you can analyze things at the population level.

_0ffh 6y ago

Don't know about the danger in there, but what else would you want to add to the mix besides determinism and randomness? I don't know of anything else that could possibly have any influence, unless you want to go supernatural.

AgentMatt 6y ago
I share the sentiment of the parent with regards to "either deterministic or random" sounding off to me. I wanted to propose "stochastic" as a better term, but apparently "random" and "stochastic" are synonyms. [1] What it comes down to is that "random" to me has a connotation of arbitrary, unpredictable. Whereas "stochastic" to me suggests a deterministic process with random influences. So maybe the sentiment is better expressed as making sure it is clear that deterministic and random are the two extremes of a continuum, rather than an either/or distinction. [1] https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/114373/whats-the-difference-between-stochastic-and-random https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/114373/whats-the-di...
- dalbasal 6y ago
  That is what I meant, which is why I said "in the arbitrary sense." I think our language is lacking here. In technical terms, neither random nor stochastic imply evenly distributed. In casual conversation, "random" does. "Emergent" may be a better term for what I meant. Randomness (in the casual sense) is an ingredient in a stochastic process leading to non-random, even effectively deterministic results. The comment I was replying to: "the inputs that drive that subjective feeling are still either deterministic or random." The ingredients which lead someone to suddenly sing a son apropos of nothing (seemingly random/arbitrary) are the same as those leading someone to pull their finger away from a flame... seemingly deterministic.
dalbasal 6y ago
Is evolution by natural selection deterministic or random?
- s1artibartfast 6y ago
  Both. Evolution by natural selection is composed of several processes and events, some of which are random, some of which are deterministic.
  - dalbasal 6y ago
    ...That was an example in a context re: free will. Determinism vs randomness dichotomy. Evolution is not distinctly either, which is my point.
    - s1artibartfast 6y ago
      Free will, by definition, can be neither deterministic or random, which is very different.

ses1984 6y ago

In populations, children who grow up in musical households are more likely to become musicians. That is neither random nor determined. A particular child growing up to be a musician, is either random or determined. Maybe each child in a population is determined, or random, but at least you can analyze things at the population level.