15 ms·

Paris hails victory over short-stay rents

153 points by Cantbekhan 6y ago

emteycz 6y ago
Yeah, Prague politicians are also hailing victories and thanking the coronavirus. Meanwhile, housing prices are up 30%, but who cares about reality, it is Airbnb doing it and it's dead, yay!
- megous 6y ago
  You should compare city center prices before/after, where maybe 1/5 of flats is/was used for airbnb and similar short term rentals.
  - emteycz 6y ago
    The thing is, way more flats, like at least 10x more, is/was used as offices. The issue is absolutely elsewhere, Airbnb has nearly no effect [here].
    - megous 6y ago
      True that, it's hard to separate the effect of shift to home office, and other economic shifts due to sudden drop in tourism.
dalbasal 6y ago
I don't fall strongly on either side of these debates, but I'm kind of against the debate as a whole. I just don't think that trade offs between short stay rentals, even airbnb hotels, and rental housing has much of a win in it for renters even if advocates get everything they want. It seems like a marginal, symbolic issue that sucks up a lot of attention without the potential for meaningful results. Are bans on short term rentals going to noticeably affect housing prices of availability. If not, why are affordable housing activists so interested in this? The whole thing feels like win hunting.
- tormeh 6y ago
  I see this a lot. People fight against the aesthetic of things they dislike rather than the cause of things they dislike
- gedy 6y ago
  It's mainly to protect Hotels, bed-taxes, etc.
  - reaperducer 6y ago
    It's mainly to protect Hotels, bed-taxes, etc. No, it's mainly to protect residents. The people who actually make a city a city. If you're looking for greed and cash, look to the Airbnb companies that operate hundreds or thousands of rentals. Hotels are zoned into commercial areas so that they don't ruin residential areas. Airbnb flouts that. There are places in Chicago where corporations that own fleets of Airbnb buildings bought up half the residential properties on a single block and turned them into Airbnb rentals. It destroyed the quality of life for the people who have put all of their money and time into the neighborhood.
    - dannyw 6y ago
      This actually reminds me of big miners eating small miners when it came to mining cryptocurrency. We used to have arguments about whether bitcoin is valuable if everyone didn’t have a chance to mine. I guess such is capitalism.
    - mytailorisrich 6y ago
      Hotels are not "zoned on commercial areas" in central Paris. It's highly mixed. The problem is really for residents of a single building when that building is pretty much turned into a hotel with people coming and going all the time because of AirBnb flats. There is an element of truth, though, in claiming that hotels do not like the competition from AirBnb. Case in point, tourists love AirBnb. The fundamental force at play in a place like Paris is the many millions of people who want to visit every year.
    - 6y ago
DocTomoe 6y ago
Paris government hails victory that will give them more bribe money from local hotel owners.
lhnz 6y ago
I wonder if this has a positive or negative effect on tourism within Paris?
- littleweep 6y ago
  I feel like someone first decides on a destination and then decides on where to stay. I don't think a sizable portion of travelers prioritize staying in an apartment or private home over visiting Paris.
  - dfxm12 6y ago
    While true, one thing to consider is that, if renting an apartment that sleeps 4 is cheaper than renting two otherwise similar hotel rooms that sleep 2, that means the travelers have more money to spend while they're there. Is this significant to matter to the other tourism industries in Paris? That I don't know... Does it outweigh the issues people have with AirBNB? Probably not...
  - nixusg 6y ago
    For a period I was a digital nomad and stayed in a few cities for ~1 month each. Airbnb allowed us to immerse ourselves in the local neighborhoods and get a real feel for the places. If I had to stay in a hotel for that same period I probably would have chosen a different destination. Paris was not one of the places we stayed though.
  - jonplackett 6y ago
    We just went to París (in the time before...) and staying in an Airbnb. We probably wouldn’t have gone if there’d only been hotels available. We have a child who needs her own room and it’s just such a massive pain figuring that out with a hotel. Airbnb means we can get her in bed and have an evening together sitting in the lounge and making food in the kitchen without worrying about where in the hotel a baby monitor will reach, or whatever weird things come up after the photos from the hotel room turn out to be completely fictitious as usual. Just like Uber VS minicabs and Amazon VS other online shops - the reason people like the new thing is mostly because the old thing was TERRIBLE.
  - 6y ago
aborsy 6y ago
Rents in Paris approach Bay Area level, see per m2 rent or real state prices in common rental sites: www.pap.fr https://www.seloger.com/ https://www.seloger.com/ Government regulations protecting small group of people and vested interests at costs to most other residents have contributed to this. The government is omnipresent. It restricts the supply through various mechanisms among which are these regulations, and subsidizes the demand. The result is skyrocketing rents and prices. With Bay Area rents and low wages, I asked colleagues how people afford their lives in Paris. Apparently, people share, have inherited apartments, use government assigned buildings etc. French might benefit from a healthier more rational (rather than idiological) look at the market economy vs central planning. Note: I know this view is not politically correct and popular in EU, but I thought I would mention it nevertheless. Replacing textbook economy with ideology won’t be beneficial for French. At least listen to what your Nobel prize winners in economy and experts in policy are saying (Tirole etc).
- throw_m239339 6y ago
  What does your comment have to do with companies listing illegal short stay rents? Nothing. Rent is going up in every big city on the planet. It has nothing to do with any government policy, much more to do with ultra rich people and other funds using real-estate as a safe "investment", because they are well aware that the stock market valuations are mostly bullshit propped up by fake money.
  - maxlamb 6y ago
    but the thing is government policy CAN make a difference for just the situation you described, like increasing property taxes on investment properties. Berlin is an example where government has mostly successfully kept rents stable, or a least a lot more stable that most other cities. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-19/berlin-senate-approves-a-five-year-rent-freeze https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-19/berlin-se...
legitster 6y ago
Airbnb listings are associated with a fairly small but noticeable increase in rents: https://hbr.org/2019/04/research-when-airbnb-listings-in-a-city-increase-so-do-rent-prices https://hbr.org/2019/04/research-when-airbnb-listings-in-a-c... But the question I always wonder is what's so special about hotels that they get to build dozens or hundreds of apartments but don't have to put them on the market? It seems like there is a lot of problems baked into zoning, and it doesn't seem fair to punish Airbnb owners who are playing arbitrage.
- raziel2p 6y ago
  Hotels don't get built on ground designated for residential, surely?
  - bradlys 6y ago
    I lived right next to a hotel. So, maybe not literally on the same ground but they can be built right next to your place. I would never get an apartment next to a hotel. The idling diesel buses were obnoxious. Along with all the people who would smoke outside and yell and scream. Kinda ridiculous. I haven’t had to live next to a permanent airbnb apartment though.
    - raziel2p 6y ago
      That's a fair point but a very different problem. It's easy for a city to limit the number of hotels being built to limit the number of annoyed residents like you, if they want to. It's not as easy to limit the number of apartments being used as airbnbs, because at time of sale or even city zoning, they're just regular apartments. So it's not about whether one is more annoying than the other, it's about controlling the amount of each.
- loceng 6y ago
  Arguably the pressures of increased cost is distributed exponentially, so the whatever the top of the market can tolerate puts a compounded level of stress/pressure downstream on society.
- 6y ago
joshgev 6y ago
I understand that this definitely helps some vested interests (hotel industry, for instance), but the issue transcends a discussion of hotels vs. Airbnb and the cost of housing. I've had the displeasure of living in an apartment building that was used partially for long-term tenants (of which I was one) and short-term Airbnb guests. The experience was terrible. Constant noise, incredibly inconsiderate people leaving trash everywhere, etc. The interesting thing is the short-term units weren't cheap; they were actually rather expensive. So it wasn't as though we were getting a bunch of college partier types; they were typically young professionals. Given how unpleasant it was, I can't imagine how bad it would be if the quality of guests had been different. The building was a large house that had been divided into a number of units. I spoke to some of our neighbors (who owned their homes, they were not renting units like we were) and they expressed the difficulty they'd had with the short-term guests in our building. It had been years of calling the police, legal action, etc. The people I spoke with seemed pretty reasonable; they wanted a quiet neighborhood where their kids could play. They didn't enjoy finding drugs in the drive way and urine all over their property. Airbnb, in my opinion, definitely has a detrimental effect on communities. Even if the guests are nice, if some large fraction of the population is turning over daily, that necessarily takes away from the community.
- arcturus17 6y ago
  Everyone I've talked to in Madrid has had the same experience you describe. Neighbor communities ("comunidad de vecinos", akin to a homeowner's association) are enshrined by Spanish law and I believe they can act against the AirBnBization of buildings in some cases, but further EU-level protection for locals are more than welcome.
- yardie 6y ago
  I own in a building that used to be rampant with AirBnb rentals. Once we had enough owners to vote on new bylaws we reduced short term rentals dramatically. From do as you want, to 30 days, and now 6 months. I used to not mind Airbnb and was a long time proponent. But the edge cases aren't even edge cases anymore. Just within the last few days one of the more popular buildings in our neighborhood had a shooting. The owners and tenants are absolutely pissed. Because at $3000+/month this is not how they wanted to live. That building management company was fired and a new one brought in. With armed security now. The straw for me was the variability of the owners. If I get a substandard hotel room I call the desk and get moved to another suite. If I have a substandard Airbnb I only get a refund. I'm still left scrambling to find new, last minute accommodations.
aloukissas 6y ago
Glad to see this. The same thing (to a worse degree) has happened in Athens, where the supply of rental units has diminished to more than 1/3 (with average rents going 2-3x in a 1-2 year period), as landlords converted units to short-term rentals. This is particularly touchy for Greece, as tourism accounts for 25%+ of GDP, so tourist-friendly regulation has a big impact. OTOH, it's a country with one of the lowest average wages in the EU, which means that the rent increases has made the situation unlivable. Example: average net monthly salary is something in the 800-1000 EUR range, with 300EUR renting you something decent 5 years ago. Today, not only it's much harder to find vacant rental units, but their prices have also bumped to 600-700 EUR. IMO, the best approach to this is similar to what the city of Santa Monica has -- hosts can only rent a room in a property (i.e. no "entire house to yourself"), i.e. similar to the couchsurfing model. I've found this a pleasant experience when visiting a new city, as living with a local can make the stay more personal and enjoyable.
- swarnie_ 6y ago
  I came to Athens last summer and spent 4 nights in the city staying in an AirBnB style rent. I thought it would be better doing this than giving my money to a generic international hotel chain but you disagree apparently. I find your solution unworkable personally. When I travel I like to have somewhere private I can come back to after a long day, the coach surfing model doesn't appeal to couples.
  - aloukissas 6y ago
    Unfortunately, most of the owners of Airbnb and other short-term rentals in Greece are non-Greek citizens who got a "golden passport" in the recent years, buying off a huge chunk of the apartment inventory in Athens and elsewhere. Re: couch-surfing -- probably a bad metaphor on my end. I meant the "rent a room in a house" model that Airbnb offers.
    - swarnie_ 6y ago
      I had no idea. Thinking back I doubt the place we stayed was ever intended to be a rental, it felt like a very large house which had been portioned up in to 4 flats and a make-shift reception area added. Cool city but some worrying experiences, might check out some islands next time.
throw_m239339 6y ago
off topic: please developers stop hijacking the back button for no reason. It's extremely hostile behaviour and you are getting nothing out of it but contempt from the user. Why does the BBC website needs to do that exactly?
- dang 6y ago
  "Please don't complain about website formatting, back-button breakage, and similar annoyances. They're too common to be interesting. Exception: when the author is present. Then friendly feedback might be helpful." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
murbard2 6y ago
What's in a title? "Paris hails victory". No. The city government of Paris hails a victory. Whether that's a victory for the city and its inhabitants is a very different matter.
- baud147258 6y ago
  I'd count that as the win for the inhabitants if that can slow down the increase in price
  - novok 6y ago
    Paris could also allow higher buildings in its core too... AirBNB is insignificant in prices compared to that measure. Banning AirBNB is like banning plastic bags in grocery stores while not do the real things to fight global warming. It's a distraction from the real causes of high rent in Paris.
- theplague42 6y ago
  Surely the government is elected by the inhabitants, right?
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    Just because the losing side isn't yet willing to start shooting people over it doesn't mean that the people who are pro-whatever outnumber the people who are anti-whatever by any margin worth mentioning.
PeterStuer 6y ago
Great news. Finally some counter to these anti-social regulation dodging assaults on the already fragile social contracts in cities.
cblconfederate 6y ago
This doesnt seem to be controversial. And TBH i believe the airbnb-airlines-instagram tourism boom party is over. Post covid, with rising unemployment, remote work, and relocation to more livable places, people aren't going to be chasing cheap flights for more selfies.
- MrPowers 6y ago
  I'm not sure the tourism boom is over. Addressing your specific points: * rising unemployment - overall employment is falling, but most digital nomad jobs haven't been impacted * remote work - this makes it easier to digital nomad (e.g. a NYC dweller that travels for the winter) * relocation to more livable places - Suppose you relocate from SF to a more "livable" place like Tucson, not sure that'll reduce demand to go to places like Brazil, Europe I'm typing these words in the Medellin airport. Travelling sucks now. If travelling stays this crappy, then it's likely people will move around less.
  - cblconfederate 6y ago
    Nice, but the vast business of airbnb is for tourism. There will surely be a sizeable market for the remote working population but it's tiny compared to the tourism boom of 2000-2020.
Mupuff 6y ago
Maybe the time is ripe for change. Time to start a Airbnb competitor that doesn't follow the mantra "growth at all costs", and doesn't put its own revenue stream above the good of society.
RestlessMind 6y ago
> Short-stay specialist Airbnb said it welcomed a decision that "will go to help in clarifying the rules". Why does that leave me with a feeling that Airbnb now considers itself to be entrenched enough that they are welcoming government regulations which will prevent upstarts from competing with it?
- mtoner23 6y ago
  Airbnb has been open about its willingness to work with regulators. They are honest about the fact that they are in a grey area and would like regulators to define the rules. but they also push back to say look, Airbnb is providing a service that is missed in the market so don't be quick to just ban it because hotels hate us. For reference: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/airbnb-want-to-be-regulated-1.4788017 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/airbnb-want-to-be-regulated...
  - andrewzah 6y ago
    Okay, then ban it (at least until tight regulations are enforced well) because locals hate it too. :-) It guess it's a bit hypocritical for me to say that as I've used airbnb to live in and visit various countries, but I also have seen how inconsiderate and downright rude short term renters can be. It's good that airbnb wants to be regulated, but bigger businesses can easily deal with tight regulations, whereas it's much harder for small newcomers. -Obviously- Airbnb will prefer policies that gain it public favor while also making it harder for competitors.
  - deleted 6y ago
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gridlockd 6y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK37udFtxyA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK37udFtxyA
jdeibele 6y ago
As a family of two adults and 3 children we've very much appreciated being able to stay in places where we can cook for ourselves, be able to do laundry, and have space to spread out a bit. In the US, there are chains like Embassy Suites that work well for families because they have two bedrooms separated by a living/cooking area. The fact that they're typically far outside downtown matters a lot less because we've rented a car. In Europe, we usually didn't want to rent a car. Having 5 people was a problem with hotels because their typical limit was 4 people to a room. So being able to rent an apartment or house near downtown was wonderful. If you don't have kids, there's nothing quite like watching your 3 kids refuse to eat the $15/each meal that you ordered. Repeatedly. And have to resort to crackers or chips from a convenience store. It's going to be interesting to see what the outcome of the pandemic will be. We stayed on a house on a canal in Amsterdam and it was amazing. But you can see why the locals would want that house available to themselves.
- analog31 6y ago
  This is how my family prefers to travel too. Given our preferences for mountain hiking, we've found apartments to rent during the summer in ski resort towns. Those towns are already set up to handle that kind of rental, and we were doing it long before AirBnB was ever a thing. Also, longer term rentals made more sense. We could get up and leave at 6 AM for a day long hike without also having to take care of checking out of a hotel and packing our car first. I can't understand why anybody in their right mind would subject themselves to taking kids to a restaurant. Not only is the expensive food typically wasted, but it takes half of your waking hours getting them in and out of those accommodations.
- Clampower 6y ago
  It's nice that this is your preferred way to travel, but I live in Amsterdam and our city center is ravaged by tourists and the companies that profit off them. Enabling restrictions that limit overtourism, and that actively work to reverse the monoculture and disneyfication of our city are so incredibly important. Your ability to budget travel Europe with a family of five, due to your budget constrains, should not drastically raise rent and house prices. The center should belong to its residents. Not only do short term rentals like airbnb drive up the prices for regular rent and ownership, but they negatively affect everyone who does manage to afford a spot. Living in an apartment block with one or several airbnbs is awful, destroys the fabric of neighborhoods, and especially introduces plenty of loud guests who don't care about the neighbors within the block. Airbnb and similar platforms are exploitative of the environments that allow them. Your comfort to travel with a large family for cheap is not defendable against the negative impact on residents.

153 points by Cantbekhan 6y ago

Yeah, Prague politicians are also hailing victories and thanking the coronavirus. Meanwhile, housing prices are up 30%, but who cares about reality, it is Airbnb doing it and it's dead, yay!

megous 6y ago
You should compare city center prices before/after, where maybe 1/5 of flats is/was used for airbnb and similar short term rentals.
- emteycz 6y ago
  The thing is, way more flats, like at least 10x more, is/was used as offices. The issue is absolutely elsewhere, Airbnb has nearly no effect [here].
  - megous 6y ago
    True that, it's hard to separate the effect of shift to home office, and other economic shifts due to sudden drop in tourism.

dalbasal 6y ago

I don't fall strongly on either side of these debates, but I'm kind of against the debate as a whole. I just don't think that trade offs between short stay rentals, even airbnb hotels, and rental housing has much of a win in it for renters even if advocates get everything they want. It seems like a marginal, symbolic issue that sucks up a lot of attention without the potential for meaningful results. Are bans on short term rentals going to noticeably affect housing prices of availability. If not, why are affordable housing activists so interested in this? The whole thing feels like win hunting.

tormeh 6y ago
I see this a lot. People fight against the aesthetic of things they dislike rather than the cause of things they dislike
gedy 6y ago
It's mainly to protect Hotels, bed-taxes, etc.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  It's mainly to protect Hotels, bed-taxes, etc. No, it's mainly to protect residents. The people who actually make a city a city. If you're looking for greed and cash, look to the Airbnb companies that operate hundreds or thousands of rentals. Hotels are zoned into commercial areas so that they don't ruin residential areas. Airbnb flouts that. There are places in Chicago where corporations that own fleets of Airbnb buildings bought up half the residential properties on a single block and turned them into Airbnb rentals. It destroyed the quality of life for the people who have put all of their money and time into the neighborhood.
  - dannyw 6y ago
    This actually reminds me of big miners eating small miners when it came to mining cryptocurrency. We used to have arguments about whether bitcoin is valuable if everyone didn’t have a chance to mine. I guess such is capitalism.
  - mytailorisrich 6y ago
    Hotels are not "zoned on commercial areas" in central Paris. It's highly mixed. The problem is really for residents of a single building when that building is pretty much turned into a hotel with people coming and going all the time because of AirBnb flats. There is an element of truth, though, in claiming that hotels do not like the competition from AirBnb. Case in point, tourists love AirBnb. The fundamental force at play in a place like Paris is the many millions of people who want to visit every year.
  - 6y ago

DocTomoe 6y ago

Paris government hails victory that will give them more bribe money from local hotel owners.

lhnz 6y ago

I wonder if this has a positive or negative effect on tourism within Paris?

littleweep 6y ago
I feel like someone first decides on a destination and then decides on where to stay. I don't think a sizable portion of travelers prioritize staying in an apartment or private home over visiting Paris.
- dfxm12 6y ago
  While true, one thing to consider is that, if renting an apartment that sleeps 4 is cheaper than renting two otherwise similar hotel rooms that sleep 2, that means the travelers have more money to spend while they're there. Is this significant to matter to the other tourism industries in Paris? That I don't know... Does it outweigh the issues people have with AirBNB? Probably not...
- nixusg 6y ago
  For a period I was a digital nomad and stayed in a few cities for ~1 month each. Airbnb allowed us to immerse ourselves in the local neighborhoods and get a real feel for the places. If I had to stay in a hotel for that same period I probably would have chosen a different destination. Paris was not one of the places we stayed though.
- jonplackett 6y ago
  We just went to París (in the time before...) and staying in an Airbnb. We probably wouldn’t have gone if there’d only been hotels available. We have a child who needs her own room and it’s just such a massive pain figuring that out with a hotel. Airbnb means we can get her in bed and have an evening together sitting in the lounge and making food in the kitchen without worrying about where in the hotel a baby monitor will reach, or whatever weird things come up after the photos from the hotel room turn out to be completely fictitious as usual. Just like Uber VS minicabs and Amazon VS other online shops - the reason people like the new thing is mostly because the old thing was TERRIBLE.
- 6y ago

aborsy 6y ago

Rents in Paris approach Bay Area level, see per m2 rent or real state prices in common rental sites: www.pap.fr https://www.seloger.com/ https://www.seloger.com/ Government regulations protecting small group of people and vested interests at costs to most other residents have contributed to this. The government is omnipresent. It restricts the supply through various mechanisms among which are these regulations, and subsidizes the demand. The result is skyrocketing rents and prices. With Bay Area rents and low wages, I asked colleagues how people afford their lives in Paris. Apparently, people share, have inherited apartments, use government assigned buildings etc. French might benefit from a healthier more rational (rather than idiological) look at the market economy vs central planning. Note: I know this view is not politically correct and popular in EU, but I thought I would mention it nevertheless. Replacing textbook economy with ideology won’t be beneficial for French. At least listen to what your Nobel prize winners in economy and experts in policy are saying (Tirole etc).

throw_m239339 6y ago
What does your comment have to do with companies listing illegal short stay rents? Nothing. Rent is going up in every big city on the planet. It has nothing to do with any government policy, much more to do with ultra rich people and other funds using real-estate as a safe "investment", because they are well aware that the stock market valuations are mostly bullshit propped up by fake money.
- maxlamb 6y ago
  but the thing is government policy CAN make a difference for just the situation you described, like increasing property taxes on investment properties. Berlin is an example where government has mostly successfully kept rents stable, or a least a lot more stable that most other cities. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-19/berlin-senate-approves-a-five-year-rent-freeze https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-19/berlin-se...

legitster 6y ago

Airbnb listings are associated with a fairly small but noticeable increase in rents: https://hbr.org/2019/04/research-when-airbnb-listings-in-a-city-increase-so-do-rent-prices https://hbr.org/2019/04/research-when-airbnb-listings-in-a-c... But the question I always wonder is what's so special about hotels that they get to build dozens or hundreds of apartments but don't have to put them on the market? It seems like there is a lot of problems baked into zoning, and it doesn't seem fair to punish Airbnb owners who are playing arbitrage.

raziel2p 6y ago
Hotels don't get built on ground designated for residential, surely?
- bradlys 6y ago
  I lived right next to a hotel. So, maybe not literally on the same ground but they can be built right next to your place. I would never get an apartment next to a hotel. The idling diesel buses were obnoxious. Along with all the people who would smoke outside and yell and scream. Kinda ridiculous. I haven’t had to live next to a permanent airbnb apartment though.
  - raziel2p 6y ago
    That's a fair point but a very different problem. It's easy for a city to limit the number of hotels being built to limit the number of annoyed residents like you, if they want to. It's not as easy to limit the number of apartments being used as airbnbs, because at time of sale or even city zoning, they're just regular apartments. So it's not about whether one is more annoying than the other, it's about controlling the amount of each.
loceng 6y ago
Arguably the pressures of increased cost is distributed exponentially, so the whatever the top of the market can tolerate puts a compounded level of stress/pressure downstream on society.
6y ago

joshgev 6y ago

I understand that this definitely helps some vested interests (hotel industry, for instance), but the issue transcends a discussion of hotels vs. Airbnb and the cost of housing. I've had the displeasure of living in an apartment building that was used partially for long-term tenants (of which I was one) and short-term Airbnb guests. The experience was terrible. Constant noise, incredibly inconsiderate people leaving trash everywhere, etc. The interesting thing is the short-term units weren't cheap; they were actually rather expensive. So it wasn't as though we were getting a bunch of college partier types; they were typically young professionals. Given how unpleasant it was, I can't imagine how bad it would be if the quality of guests had been different. The building was a large house that had been divided into a number of units. I spoke to some of our neighbors (who owned their homes, they were not renting units like we were) and they expressed the difficulty they'd had with the short-term guests in our building. It had been years of calling the police, legal action, etc. The people I spoke with seemed pretty reasonable; they wanted a quiet neighborhood where their kids could play. They didn't enjoy finding drugs in the drive way and urine all over their property. Airbnb, in my opinion, definitely has a detrimental effect on communities. Even if the guests are nice, if some large fraction of the population is turning over daily, that necessarily takes away from the community.

arcturus17 6y ago
Everyone I've talked to in Madrid has had the same experience you describe. Neighbor communities ("comunidad de vecinos", akin to a homeowner's association) are enshrined by Spanish law and I believe they can act against the AirBnBization of buildings in some cases, but further EU-level protection for locals are more than welcome.
yardie 6y ago
I own in a building that used to be rampant with AirBnb rentals. Once we had enough owners to vote on new bylaws we reduced short term rentals dramatically. From do as you want, to 30 days, and now 6 months. I used to not mind Airbnb and was a long time proponent. But the edge cases aren't even edge cases anymore. Just within the last few days one of the more popular buildings in our neighborhood had a shooting. The owners and tenants are absolutely pissed. Because at $3000+/month this is not how they wanted to live. That building management company was fired and a new one brought in. With armed security now. The straw for me was the variability of the owners. If I get a substandard hotel room I call the desk and get moved to another suite. If I have a substandard Airbnb I only get a refund. I'm still left scrambling to find new, last minute accommodations.

aloukissas 6y ago

Glad to see this. The same thing (to a worse degree) has happened in Athens, where the supply of rental units has diminished to more than 1/3 (with average rents going 2-3x in a 1-2 year period), as landlords converted units to short-term rentals. This is particularly touchy for Greece, as tourism accounts for 25%+ of GDP, so tourist-friendly regulation has a big impact. OTOH, it's a country with one of the lowest average wages in the EU, which means that the rent increases has made the situation unlivable. Example: average net monthly salary is something in the 800-1000 EUR range, with 300EUR renting you something decent 5 years ago. Today, not only it's much harder to find vacant rental units, but their prices have also bumped to 600-700 EUR. IMO, the best approach to this is similar to what the city of Santa Monica has -- hosts can only rent a room in a property (i.e. no "entire house to yourself"), i.e. similar to the couchsurfing model. I've found this a pleasant experience when visiting a new city, as living with a local can make the stay more personal and enjoyable.

swarnie_ 6y ago
I came to Athens last summer and spent 4 nights in the city staying in an AirBnB style rent. I thought it would be better doing this than giving my money to a generic international hotel chain but you disagree apparently. I find your solution unworkable personally. When I travel I like to have somewhere private I can come back to after a long day, the coach surfing model doesn't appeal to couples.
- aloukissas 6y ago
  Unfortunately, most of the owners of Airbnb and other short-term rentals in Greece are non-Greek citizens who got a "golden passport" in the recent years, buying off a huge chunk of the apartment inventory in Athens and elsewhere. Re: couch-surfing -- probably a bad metaphor on my end. I meant the "rent a room in a house" model that Airbnb offers.
  - swarnie_ 6y ago
    I had no idea. Thinking back I doubt the place we stayed was ever intended to be a rental, it felt like a very large house which had been portioned up in to 4 flats and a make-shift reception area added. Cool city but some worrying experiences, might check out some islands next time.

throw_m239339 6y ago

off topic: please developers stop hijacking the back button for no reason. It's extremely hostile behaviour and you are getting nothing out of it but contempt from the user. Why does the BBC website needs to do that exactly?

dang 6y ago
"Please don't complain about website formatting, back-button breakage, and similar annoyances. They're too common to be interesting. Exception: when the author is present. Then friendly feedback might be helpful." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

murbard2 6y ago

What's in a title? "Paris hails victory". No. The city government of Paris hails a victory. Whether that's a victory for the city and its inhabitants is a very different matter.

baud147258 6y ago
I'd count that as the win for the inhabitants if that can slow down the increase in price
- novok 6y ago
  Paris could also allow higher buildings in its core too... AirBNB is insignificant in prices compared to that measure. Banning AirBNB is like banning plastic bags in grocery stores while not do the real things to fight global warming. It's a distraction from the real causes of high rent in Paris.
theplague42 6y ago
Surely the government is elected by the inhabitants, right?
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  Just because the losing side isn't yet willing to start shooting people over it doesn't mean that the people who are pro-whatever outnumber the people who are anti-whatever by any margin worth mentioning.

PeterStuer 6y ago

Great news. Finally some counter to these anti-social regulation dodging assaults on the already fragile social contracts in cities.

cblconfederate 6y ago

This doesnt seem to be controversial. And TBH i believe the airbnb-airlines-instagram tourism boom party is over. Post covid, with rising unemployment, remote work, and relocation to more livable places, people aren't going to be chasing cheap flights for more selfies.

MrPowers 6y ago
I'm not sure the tourism boom is over. Addressing your specific points: * rising unemployment - overall employment is falling, but most digital nomad jobs haven't been impacted * remote work - this makes it easier to digital nomad (e.g. a NYC dweller that travels for the winter) * relocation to more livable places - Suppose you relocate from SF to a more "livable" place like Tucson, not sure that'll reduce demand to go to places like Brazil, Europe I'm typing these words in the Medellin airport. Travelling sucks now. If travelling stays this crappy, then it's likely people will move around less.
- cblconfederate 6y ago
  Nice, but the vast business of airbnb is for tourism. There will surely be a sizeable market for the remote working population but it's tiny compared to the tourism boom of 2000-2020.

Mupuff 6y ago

Maybe the time is ripe for change. Time to start a Airbnb competitor that doesn't follow the mantra "growth at all costs", and doesn't put its own revenue stream above the good of society.

RestlessMind 6y ago

> Short-stay specialist Airbnb said it welcomed a decision that "will go to help in clarifying the rules". Why does that leave me with a feeling that Airbnb now considers itself to be entrenched enough that they are welcoming government regulations which will prevent upstarts from competing with it?

mtoner23 6y ago
Airbnb has been open about its willingness to work with regulators. They are honest about the fact that they are in a grey area and would like regulators to define the rules. but they also push back to say look, Airbnb is providing a service that is missed in the market so don't be quick to just ban it because hotels hate us. For reference: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/airbnb-want-to-be-regulated-1.4788017 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/airbnb-want-to-be-regulated...
- andrewzah 6y ago
  Okay, then ban it (at least until tight regulations are enforced well) because locals hate it too. :-) It guess it's a bit hypocritical for me to say that as I've used airbnb to live in and visit various countries, but I also have seen how inconsiderate and downright rude short term renters can be. It's good that airbnb wants to be regulated, but bigger businesses can easily deal with tight regulations, whereas it's much harder for small newcomers. -Obviously- Airbnb will prefer policies that gain it public favor while also making it harder for competitors.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

gridlockd 6y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK37udFtxyA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK37udFtxyA

jdeibele 6y ago

As a family of two adults and 3 children we've very much appreciated being able to stay in places where we can cook for ourselves, be able to do laundry, and have space to spread out a bit. In the US, there are chains like Embassy Suites that work well for families because they have two bedrooms separated by a living/cooking area. The fact that they're typically far outside downtown matters a lot less because we've rented a car. In Europe, we usually didn't want to rent a car. Having 5 people was a problem with hotels because their typical limit was 4 people to a room. So being able to rent an apartment or house near downtown was wonderful. If you don't have kids, there's nothing quite like watching your 3 kids refuse to eat the $15/each meal that you ordered. Repeatedly. And have to resort to crackers or chips from a convenience store. It's going to be interesting to see what the outcome of the pandemic will be. We stayed on a house on a canal in Amsterdam and it was amazing. But you can see why the locals would want that house available to themselves.

analog31 6y ago
This is how my family prefers to travel too. Given our preferences for mountain hiking, we've found apartments to rent during the summer in ski resort towns. Those towns are already set up to handle that kind of rental, and we were doing it long before AirBnB was ever a thing. Also, longer term rentals made more sense. We could get up and leave at 6 AM for a day long hike without also having to take care of checking out of a hotel and packing our car first. I can't understand why anybody in their right mind would subject themselves to taking kids to a restaurant. Not only is the expensive food typically wasted, but it takes half of your waking hours getting them in and out of those accommodations.
Clampower 6y ago
It's nice that this is your preferred way to travel, but I live in Amsterdam and our city center is ravaged by tourists and the companies that profit off them. Enabling restrictions that limit overtourism, and that actively work to reverse the monoculture and disneyfication of our city are so incredibly important. Your ability to budget travel Europe with a family of five, due to your budget constrains, should not drastically raise rent and house prices. The center should belong to its residents. Not only do short term rentals like airbnb drive up the prices for regular rent and ownership, but they negatively affect everyone who does manage to afford a spot. Living in an apartment block with one or several airbnbs is awful, destroys the fabric of neighborhoods, and especially introduces plenty of loud guests who don't care about the neighbors within the block. Airbnb and similar platforms are exploitative of the environments that allow them. Your comfort to travel with a large family for cheap is not defendable against the negative impact on residents.