5 ms·

I made this little comparison for myself, comparing 1 TB 970 Pro, 980 Pro and Intel Optane 905P 960 GB 970 Pro 980 Pro Optane

I made this little comparison for myself, comparing 1 TB 970 Pro, 980 Pro and Intel Optane 905P 960 GB 970 Pro 980 Pro Optane TBW, TB 1,200 600 17,520 QD1 random read, IOPS 15,000 22,000 73,000 QD1 random write, IOPS 55,000 60,000 66,000 QD32 random read, IOPS 500,000 1000,000 575,000 QD32 random write, IOPS 500,000 1000,000 550,000 Sequential read, MB/S 3,500 7,000 2,600 Sequential write, MB/S 2,700 5,000 2,200 May be it'll be interesting for someone. Most numbers are from specs, some Optane numbers are from benchmarks. I guess that sustained write load will yield lower numbers for Samsung, because they're using their DRAM cache to achieve those numbers.

the8472 6y ago
IOPS heavily depend on accessed block sizes though, the promise for optane, especially the DIMM kind is cacheline-addressability.
bserge 6y ago
Wow, why was the TBW halved? New NAND process? I remember SSD lifespan going down between the Samsung 470 (32nm flash) and its successor the 830 (20nm flash), and going down even further with TLC flash. Doesn't seem to affect the average lifespan (it's more data than most people will write) but still, it would be nice if they lasted longer instead of being ultrafast.
- frant-hartm 6y ago
  970 Pro was MLC, 980 Pro is TLC (they call it 3 bit MLC)
  - throwaway8941 6y ago
    >980 Pro is TLC Any news on 980 Evo? Considering this downgrade, I'd assume Evo will run on QLC.
  - bserge 6y ago
    Ah, that explains it.
- vbezhenar 6y ago
  I checked Samsung server SSD SM863a MZ-7KM960N 960 GB. They claim 6,160TBW. It's using SATA and much slower than M.2 SSD though.
  - bserge 6y ago
    But server hardware is more expensive and can be harder to get. They really should make a "high endurance" SSD model for consumers. I think many people would like that over benchmark speed. Personally, I can only saturate SATA 6 Gbps when doing backups.
    - fomine3 6y ago
      In 2D MLC era, 50-75TBW for 500GB drive was common. Now in 3D TLC era, 300TBW for 500GB or more is common. It's enough endurance already and that's why industry moving torward 3D QLC.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
frant-hartm 6y ago
These sequential write numbers are for small writes. For large writes both 970 Pro and 980 Pro have a performance drop (don't know how Optane behaves here). The 970 Pro dropped to around 2000 MB/s, for the new 980 Pro the performance drop will be even larger due to using TLC (3 bit MLC in marketing materials) instead of MLC. This and the durability were the main reasons to pay the premium on the Pro line. Not sure what will be the value compared to the competition once the new Phison controller is out (or even Evo when there is a model for PCIe4.
- sliken 6y ago
  I've not heard that before, NVMe SSDS are block devices, not file devices. So why would sequential writes care if it was one file or many? Maybe you are misunderstanding queue depth for large vs small files.
  - Godel_unicode 6y ago
    It appears that you have misread the comment you're replying to. The speed drop-off once a write is larger than the cache can hold is a well known issue with SSDs, especially those which use slower NAND like TLC.
    - sliken 6y ago
      Wow, I did misread it, thanks.
olavgg 6y ago
These numbers do not contain difference between async and sync writes at 4kb or 8kb. I tested the Samsung 970 pro a few years back and got around 1000iops for 4kb sync writes or 4MB/s. Optane did 75 000 iops for 4kb sync writes or 300MB/s. Good read https://www.servethehome.com/exploring-best-zfs-zil-slog-ssd-intel-optane-nand/ https://www.servethehome.com/exploring-best-zfs-zil-slog-ssd... Another good read about Samsung 970 pro: https://forum.proxmox.com/threads/my-nvmes-suck.45158/ https://forum.proxmox.com/threads/my-nvmes-suck.45158/
cameldrv 6y ago
It's so fast, you can wear it out in just 33 hours of continuous writing!
- Macha 6y ago
  Reminds me of when 4G came to my country. At the advertised speed, you would hit the data cap in minutes.
- jiofih 6y ago
  What can possibly sustain that rate (other than cloning another SSD of the same make over and over)? The wear speed is actually the same as a 970 Evo @ 500GB, 3GB/s and 300TBW. There’s zero chance you’ll hit that during a normal computers lifetime even if you run data science tasks all day.
  - vbezhenar 6y ago
    Imagine some buggy program which writes stuff and deletes it over and over again because of some weird condition. I could even imagine that some website could do that. And you probably won't even know it! SSD is silent.
    - kasabali 6y ago
      There's actually such a program and it's called Windows. Due to a Windows Update bug, temp folder is filled with error logs which aren't deleted afterwards. https://support.microsoft.com/en-za/help/4458149/windows-10-low-disk-space-error-due-to-a-full-temp-folder https://support.microsoft.com/en-za/help/4458149/windows-10-... https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/hard-drive-filling-up-with-temp-log-files/193ffd7b-7c6e-4e33-9d0b-4e8f2aa6085c https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/hard-d...
Answerawake 6y ago
Hey maybe you or someone here can help me with this interesting problem I have. You see I wanted to put an Intel Optane SSD into an external enclosure to benchmark the absolute fastest Windows and Linux install and compare it to install times on other media(yeah I know i'm weird). So I bought one of these SSDs off of ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-Optane-Memory-M10-SSD-M-2-2280-16GB-MEMPEK1W016GA-PCIe-3-0-3D-Xpoint-NVMe/233254154323 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-Optane-Memory-M10-SSD-M-2-228... And put it in this enclosure: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07MKCG5ZG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07MKCG5ZG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b... Instead of being recognized, one of the chips on the Optane ssd started to get very hot. Was wondering if anyone knowledgeable in Optane could explain where I went wrong here? Is it even possible to put Optane in an external enclosure and write to it like an SSD/external drive? I am excited about Optane because it just seems like such an exotic technology given the interesting performance gains you get in terms of small file throughput.
- vel0city 6y ago
  The enclosure you linked says it is SATA only. The Optane drive interfaces as PCI-E. Note this photo here: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61vzuDqQjJL._AC_SL1000_.jpg https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61vzuDqQjJL... In the specs for the Optane drive you linked, it says its interface is a M.2 2280 (22mmx80mm) PCI-E 3.0 NVMe. The M.2 2280 is a physical port interface, the signaling is PCI-E, and the storage protocol is NVMe. https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/135581/intel-optane-memory-m10-series-16gb-m-2-80mm-pcie-3-0-20nm-3d-xpoint.html https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/135581/... You'll want to get a different enclosure which mentions support for PCI-E NVMe drives. EDIT: I wonder what the impact of it going over USB and the additional USB to PCI-E controller. You should probably see about getting a Thunderbolt enclosure so theoretically the PCI-E interface doesn't have to go through yet another translation, otherwise you'll probably just kill the performance you'd hope to get out of the SSD.
  - Answerawake 6y ago
    Hmm interesting. So even though the physical connector with the two notches fits, the electrical signaling is wrong. Thats seems like a bad design no? All my desktops are on SATA so I am used to a situation where as long as the connector matches (ie, SATA or DDR notches) then I am good. I wonder if I have burned my SSD by plugging it in...i'll have to find a adequate enclosure to find out. Although if I have burned it, then maybe it could then damage the new enclosure...hmm >I wonder what the impact of it going over USB and the additional USB to PCI-E controller. You should probably see about getting a Thunderbolt enclosure so theoretically the PCI-E interface doesn't have to go through yet another translation, otherwise you'll probably just kill the performance you'd hope to get out of the SSD. Hmm, the machines I am testing on don't have USB-C thunderbolt. I'll have to look into this. So I can see raw bulk performance being limited by the USB bus but would 4k performance be limited as well? I thought this was a limitation of the Flash memory and SSD controller.

the8472 6y ago

IOPS heavily depend on accessed block sizes though, the promise for optane, especially the DIMM kind is cacheline-addressability.

bserge 6y ago

Wow, why was the TBW halved? New NAND process? I remember SSD lifespan going down between the Samsung 470 (32nm flash) and its successor the 830 (20nm flash), and going down even further with TLC flash. Doesn't seem to affect the average lifespan (it's more data than most people will write) but still, it would be nice if they lasted longer instead of being ultrafast.

frant-hartm 6y ago
970 Pro was MLC, 980 Pro is TLC (they call it 3 bit MLC)
- throwaway8941 6y ago
  >980 Pro is TLC Any news on 980 Evo? Considering this downgrade, I'd assume Evo will run on QLC.
- bserge 6y ago
  Ah, that explains it.
vbezhenar 6y ago
I checked Samsung server SSD SM863a MZ-7KM960N 960 GB. They claim 6,160TBW. It's using SATA and much slower than M.2 SSD though.
- bserge 6y ago
  But server hardware is more expensive and can be harder to get. They really should make a "high endurance" SSD model for consumers. I think many people would like that over benchmark speed. Personally, I can only saturate SATA 6 Gbps when doing backups.
  - fomine3 6y ago
    In 2D MLC era, 50-75TBW for 500GB drive was common. Now in 3D TLC era, 300TBW for 500GB or more is common. It's enough endurance already and that's why industry moving torward 3D QLC.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

frant-hartm 6y ago

These sequential write numbers are for small writes. For large writes both 970 Pro and 980 Pro have a performance drop (don't know how Optane behaves here). The 970 Pro dropped to around 2000 MB/s, for the new 980 Pro the performance drop will be even larger due to using TLC (3 bit MLC in marketing materials) instead of MLC. This and the durability were the main reasons to pay the premium on the Pro line. Not sure what will be the value compared to the competition once the new Phison controller is out (or even Evo when there is a model for PCIe4.

sliken 6y ago
I've not heard that before, NVMe SSDS are block devices, not file devices. So why would sequential writes care if it was one file or many? Maybe you are misunderstanding queue depth for large vs small files.
- Godel_unicode 6y ago
  It appears that you have misread the comment you're replying to. The speed drop-off once a write is larger than the cache can hold is a well known issue with SSDs, especially those which use slower NAND like TLC.
  - sliken 6y ago
    Wow, I did misread it, thanks.

olavgg 6y ago

These numbers do not contain difference between async and sync writes at 4kb or 8kb. I tested the Samsung 970 pro a few years back and got around 1000iops for 4kb sync writes or 4MB/s. Optane did 75 000 iops for 4kb sync writes or 300MB/s. Good read https://www.servethehome.com/exploring-best-zfs-zil-slog-ssd-intel-optane-nand/ https://www.servethehome.com/exploring-best-zfs-zil-slog-ssd... Another good read about Samsung 970 pro: https://forum.proxmox.com/threads/my-nvmes-suck.45158/ https://forum.proxmox.com/threads/my-nvmes-suck.45158/

cameldrv 6y ago

It's so fast, you can wear it out in just 33 hours of continuous writing!

Macha 6y ago
Reminds me of when 4G came to my country. At the advertised speed, you would hit the data cap in minutes.
jiofih 6y ago
What can possibly sustain that rate (other than cloning another SSD of the same make over and over)? The wear speed is actually the same as a 970 Evo @ 500GB, 3GB/s and 300TBW. There’s zero chance you’ll hit that during a normal computers lifetime even if you run data science tasks all day.
- vbezhenar 6y ago
  Imagine some buggy program which writes stuff and deletes it over and over again because of some weird condition. I could even imagine that some website could do that. And you probably won't even know it! SSD is silent.
  - kasabali 6y ago
    There's actually such a program and it's called Windows. Due to a Windows Update bug, temp folder is filled with error logs which aren't deleted afterwards. https://support.microsoft.com/en-za/help/4458149/windows-10-low-disk-space-error-due-to-a-full-temp-folder https://support.microsoft.com/en-za/help/4458149/windows-10-... https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/hard-drive-filling-up-with-temp-log-files/193ffd7b-7c6e-4e33-9d0b-4e8f2aa6085c https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/hard-d...

Answerawake 6y ago

Hey maybe you or someone here can help me with this interesting problem I have. You see I wanted to put an Intel Optane SSD into an external enclosure to benchmark the absolute fastest Windows and Linux install and compare it to install times on other media(yeah I know i'm weird). So I bought one of these SSDs off of ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-Optane-Memory-M10-SSD-M-2-2280-16GB-MEMPEK1W016GA-PCIe-3-0-3D-Xpoint-NVMe/233254154323 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-Optane-Memory-M10-SSD-M-2-228... And put it in this enclosure: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07MKCG5ZG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07MKCG5ZG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b... Instead of being recognized, one of the chips on the Optane ssd started to get very hot. Was wondering if anyone knowledgeable in Optane could explain where I went wrong here? Is it even possible to put Optane in an external enclosure and write to it like an SSD/external drive? I am excited about Optane because it just seems like such an exotic technology given the interesting performance gains you get in terms of small file throughput.

vel0city 6y ago
The enclosure you linked says it is SATA only. The Optane drive interfaces as PCI-E. Note this photo here: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61vzuDqQjJL._AC_SL1000_.jpg https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61vzuDqQjJL... In the specs for the Optane drive you linked, it says its interface is a M.2 2280 (22mmx80mm) PCI-E 3.0 NVMe. The M.2 2280 is a physical port interface, the signaling is PCI-E, and the storage protocol is NVMe. https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/135581/intel-optane-memory-m10-series-16gb-m-2-80mm-pcie-3-0-20nm-3d-xpoint.html https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/135581/... You'll want to get a different enclosure which mentions support for PCI-E NVMe drives. EDIT: I wonder what the impact of it going over USB and the additional USB to PCI-E controller. You should probably see about getting a Thunderbolt enclosure so theoretically the PCI-E interface doesn't have to go through yet another translation, otherwise you'll probably just kill the performance you'd hope to get out of the SSD.
- Answerawake 6y ago
  Hmm interesting. So even though the physical connector with the two notches fits, the electrical signaling is wrong. Thats seems like a bad design no? All my desktops are on SATA so I am used to a situation where as long as the connector matches (ie, SATA or DDR notches) then I am good. I wonder if I have burned my SSD by plugging it in...i'll have to find a adequate enclosure to find out. Although if I have burned it, then maybe it could then damage the new enclosure...hmm >I wonder what the impact of it going over USB and the additional USB to PCI-E controller. You should probably see about getting a Thunderbolt enclosure so theoretically the PCI-E interface doesn't have to go through yet another translation, otherwise you'll probably just kill the performance you'd hope to get out of the SSD. Hmm, the machines I am testing on don't have USB-C thunderbolt. I'll have to look into this. So I can see raw bulk performance being limited by the USB bus but would 4k performance be limited as well? I thought this was a limitation of the Flash memory and SSD controller.