5 ms·

Not GP, but my understanding is that free will is weak, not strong. You can suppress a desire to eat a donut (requires willpower) but can't prevent the thought/

• nitrogen 6y ago
  Free will is itself still just an electrochemical process running in a physical brain. It's subjectively real, but the inputs that drive that subjective feeling are still either deterministic or random.
  • dalbasal 6y ago
    "either deterministic or random" is a possibly dangerous dichotomy. Some things are neither determined nor random, in the "arbitrary" sense of the term. A child that grows up in a musical household is more likely to become a musician. That's neither random nor determined. In populations, or over repeated instances, these can resolve to near deterministic results. At the individual level, they are more random seeming.
    • _0ffh 6y ago
      Don't know about the danger in there, but what else would you want to add to the mix besides determinism and randomness? I don't know of anything else that could possibly have any influence, unless you want to go supernatural.
      • AgentMatt 6y ago
        I share the sentiment of the parent with regards to "either deterministic or random" sounding off to me. I wanted to propose "stochastic" as a better term, but apparently "random" and "stochastic" are synonyms. [1] What it comes down to is that "random" to me has a connotation of arbitrary, unpredictable. Whereas "stochastic" to me suggests a deterministic process with random influences. So maybe the sentiment is better expressed as making sure it is clear that deterministic and random are the two extremes of a continuum, rather than an either/or distinction. [1] https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/114373/whats-the-difference-between-stochastic-and-random https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/114373/whats-the-di...
        • dalbasal 6y ago
          That is what I meant, which is why I said "in the arbitrary sense." I think our language is lacking here. In technical terms, neither random nor stochastic imply evenly distributed. In casual conversation, "random" does. "Emergent" may be a better term for what I meant. Randomness (in the casual sense) is an ingredient in a stochastic process leading to non-random, even effectively deterministic results. The comment I was replying to: "the inputs that drive that subjective feeling are still either deterministic or random." The ingredients which lead someone to suddenly sing a son apropos of nothing (seemingly random/arbitrary) are the same as those leading someone to pull their finger away from a flame... seemingly deterministic.
      • dalbasal 6y ago
        Is evolution by natural selection deterministic or random?
        • s1artibartfast 6y ago
          Both. Evolution by natural selection is composed of several processes and events, some of which are random, some of which are deterministic.
          • dalbasal 6y ago
            ...That was an example in a context re: free will. Determinism vs randomness dichotomy. Evolution is not distinctly either, which is my point.
            • s1artibartfast 6y ago
              Free will, by definition, can be neither deterministic or random, which is very different.
    • ses1984 6y ago
      In populations, children who grow up in musical households are more likely to become musicians. That is neither random nor determined. A particular child growing up to be a musician, is either random or determined. Maybe each child in a population is determined, or random, but at least you can analyze things at the population level.
  • vczf 6y ago
    Why not reduce it further? Everything is matter or energy, and the entire universe can be reduced to quantum/chemical/kinetic processes. I don't disagree with you, but I find more subjective meaning in the difference between normal cognition and metacognition, compared to viewing the system up close.
• laumars 6y ago
  What makes you decide you want to surprise the desire to eat the donut? Is that free will or was that impulse also determined from other stimulus such as body shaming, underlying health problems or financial hardship preventing one from impulse buying? I do think if you unravel how every decision is made and the origins behind those opinions then you ultimately end up with every reaction being a result of either biology or circumstance.
  • vczf 6y ago
    Emotions, typically. Most decisions are made with emotional compute, influenced by biology, past experience, and present psychological state. At the same time, being mindful and observing those emotions (predicted pleasure from the flavor, predicted guilt...) does interrupt that emotional processing and allow a "decision" to be reached in a completely different way. Free will may only exist subjectively, but mindfulness does free the self from the emotional decision-making of the monkey brain.
    • laumars 6y ago
      But you’ve also cited that emotions are the result of stimulus. Both hunger and anger (in the examples you’ve given) are the result of conditions external to ones free will. The positive spin on this is if we are going to apply a software development mindset to free will then you can also argue that the value of software isn’t its sentience but it’s usefulness. For example computer games don’t need sophisticated AI to be enjoyable. So however we argue the definition of free will, that shouldn’t take anything away from the experience of life.