4 ms·

As someone who used to heavily use intellij and visual studio, and briefly defended them when I transitioned to a shop that was full of vim/emacs hipsters, I th

As someone who used to heavily use intellij and visual studio, and briefly defended them when I transitioned to a shop that was full of vim/emacs hipsters, I throw up in my mouth a little bit every time I recall the times when I was using them. The way of the future is definitely lightweight code editors loaded with as much or little customisation as the user desires. Monolothic IDEs are long dead outside of the Enterprise™© world. Funnily enough, I also found myself using Java and .net less and less. I never had much love for Java, but C# was an amazing language that somehow got gobbled up by the Enterprise black hole and it's a huge shame.

ClumsyPilot 6y ago
Midular, sure, but lightweight? Once you've loaded VsCode with all the plugins, It's actually slower than a proper IDE.
- neurotrace 6y ago
  I have a pretty beefy VS Code configuration and it still launches 4x-5x faster than Visual Studio
  - g_b 6y ago
    What does your typical work day look like? Do you work on multiple things that don't require coding? Why does launch-time matter at all?
    - nullsense 6y ago
      This is the central question in my mind too. In a typical work day I might launch a project once. Heck, I might only launch it once a week to be honest. I spend all day navigating and reasoning about the codebase I'm working in, so I need strong tools that aide me in that. That's where VSCode doesn't hold a candle to Rider IME. So Rider is my daily driver at work. The responses from some devs leave me wondering what their env/projects/work day actually look like and how does their tooling actually work for them in practice. It would be incredibly interesting to see the landscape of different work envs and tooling and do a comparison of what happens in each given env when you swap out the tooling.
    - ubercow13 6y ago
      Launch time matters for Visual Studio because sometimes it likes to lock files that git needs to move, so it requires closing regularly.
    - neurotrace 6y ago
      > What does your typical work day look like? A typical work day has me working in at least two different projects. Visual Studio/Rider is so heavy that I don't want to keep two instances of it running all the time and it's so slow that switching between projects in a single instance carries a heavy context switching cost. I also have a set of markdown files that I use as a second brain which I like to open periodically to check notes or jot down ideas. > Do you work on multiple things that don't require coding? I also write documentation, answer emails, review PRs, occasionally modify art assets, maintain team documents, etc. I don't always want Visual Studio/Rider hogging all of my memory or chewing up the CPU. > Why does launch-time matter at all? I hope what I already wrote made it clear but TL;DR I jump between projects, don't want multiple instances consuming all my resources, and (bonus) I frequently need to restart Visual Studio because it can get in to a weird state when working in C#/F# hybrid projects.
- mantap 6y ago
  Maybe VSCode could show a little traffic light next to each plugin indicating its latency impact. What IDEs have going for them is that the features are generally constructed by people who know what they are doing and test them at the same time. Whereas a plugin could be written by anyone. Also there's a great "works on my machine" when it comes to performance: the plugin author will just test the plugin on its own rather than with a bunch of other plugins, so their performance target is artificially low.
mrlala 6y ago
> but C# was an amazing language that somehow got gobbled up by the Enterprise black hole and it's a huge shame. What in the world do you mean by this? C# is more amazing than ever...
- missosoup 6y ago
  The number of new non-enterprise projects built on C# is off by a factor of 10-100x compared to Python/Node/Rust. And even in enterprise, it's now dying. .net core is an attempt to rescue it on the cloud but it's too little too late. No matter how amazing the language is, it has become hard associated with enterprise work and not much else. It didn't need to be that way, that's Microsoft's doing.
  - mrlala 6y ago
    > it has become hard associated with enterprise work and not much else Maybe you are right on that, but why do you consider that a bad thing? Different languages are for different things. Your statement of non-enterprise projects off by a factor of 10-100x is partly because people jumped on the non-statically typed mess that Python is. Especially with all the AI related stuff.. yeah if you are doing some random little research project and you are a math person but don't want to take the time to do programming "correctly", then sure you can jump into python, use some libraries and get some results. It has it's purpose. I don't know it's just silly to bulk everything together and pretend you can compare them. Also saying .net is dying in enterprise is basically laughable.

ClumsyPilot 6y ago

Midular, sure, but lightweight? Once you've loaded VsCode with all the plugins, It's actually slower than a proper IDE.

neurotrace 6y ago
I have a pretty beefy VS Code configuration and it still launches 4x-5x faster than Visual Studio
- g_b 6y ago
  What does your typical work day look like? Do you work on multiple things that don't require coding? Why does launch-time matter at all?
  - nullsense 6y ago
    This is the central question in my mind too. In a typical work day I might launch a project once. Heck, I might only launch it once a week to be honest. I spend all day navigating and reasoning about the codebase I'm working in, so I need strong tools that aide me in that. That's where VSCode doesn't hold a candle to Rider IME. So Rider is my daily driver at work. The responses from some devs leave me wondering what their env/projects/work day actually look like and how does their tooling actually work for them in practice. It would be incredibly interesting to see the landscape of different work envs and tooling and do a comparison of what happens in each given env when you swap out the tooling.
  - ubercow13 6y ago
    Launch time matters for Visual Studio because sometimes it likes to lock files that git needs to move, so it requires closing regularly.
  - neurotrace 6y ago
    > What does your typical work day look like? A typical work day has me working in at least two different projects. Visual Studio/Rider is so heavy that I don't want to keep two instances of it running all the time and it's so slow that switching between projects in a single instance carries a heavy context switching cost. I also have a set of markdown files that I use as a second brain which I like to open periodically to check notes or jot down ideas. > Do you work on multiple things that don't require coding? I also write documentation, answer emails, review PRs, occasionally modify art assets, maintain team documents, etc. I don't always want Visual Studio/Rider hogging all of my memory or chewing up the CPU. > Why does launch-time matter at all? I hope what I already wrote made it clear but TL;DR I jump between projects, don't want multiple instances consuming all my resources, and (bonus) I frequently need to restart Visual Studio because it can get in to a weird state when working in C#/F# hybrid projects.
mantap 6y ago
Maybe VSCode could show a little traffic light next to each plugin indicating its latency impact. What IDEs have going for them is that the features are generally constructed by people who know what they are doing and test them at the same time. Whereas a plugin could be written by anyone. Also there's a great "works on my machine" when it comes to performance: the plugin author will just test the plugin on its own rather than with a bunch of other plugins, so their performance target is artificially low.

mrlala 6y ago

> but C# was an amazing language that somehow got gobbled up by the Enterprise black hole and it's a huge shame. What in the world do you mean by this? C# is more amazing than ever...

missosoup 6y ago
The number of new non-enterprise projects built on C# is off by a factor of 10-100x compared to Python/Node/Rust. And even in enterprise, it's now dying. .net core is an attempt to rescue it on the cloud but it's too little too late. No matter how amazing the language is, it has become hard associated with enterprise work and not much else. It didn't need to be that way, that's Microsoft's doing.
- mrlala 6y ago
  > it has become hard associated with enterprise work and not much else Maybe you are right on that, but why do you consider that a bad thing? Different languages are for different things. Your statement of non-enterprise projects off by a factor of 10-100x is partly because people jumped on the non-statically typed mess that Python is. Especially with all the AI related stuff.. yeah if you are doing some random little research project and you are a math person but don't want to take the time to do programming "correctly", then sure you can jump into python, use some libraries and get some results. It has it's purpose. I don't know it's just silly to bulk everything together and pretend you can compare them. Also saying .net is dying in enterprise is basically laughable.