> Of course, some would say those problem are with Corporate Java Culture choosing to use all those things, rather than the Java language itself. I'm not sure

> Of course, some would say those problem are with Corporate Java Culture choosing to use all those things, rather than the Java language itself. I'm not sure this is necessarily a culture, either. Java tends to be picked more for applications with more demanding/richer requirements, and so they need to do a lot. This demand for features drives a demand for richer frameworks. You see this exact thing happening with JS on the client. So to the extent this is a problem, perhaps it is a general software design problem.