5 ms·

I guess protesting against and naming specific entities makes it more concrete to outsiders what the "surveillance state" is.

emteycz 6y ago
Yeah, but it tells them wrong story about what the root cause is. That is wrong IMHO. This is not a rogue corporation that has to be stopped, this is a rogue government that has to be stopped.
- NationalPark 6y ago
  Activists constantly hear people from the sidelines telling them they're protesting the "wrong" way. If you really want to make a difference, stop criticizing and start doing the work you think is more important yourself.
  - jessaustin 6y ago
    A great deal of that sideline protest is cynical anyway. One doesn't want to argue the basic point, so instead of doing so one talks about a "better" way of going about it. Some call this "concern trolling".
    - emteycz 6y ago
      Please re-read what I wrote. What I want is to argue the basic point - that surveillance is wrong and the government is overstepping a boundary. None of these can be argued against a corporation that simply sold the government what it asked for.
      - jessaustin 6y ago
        Surveillance in USA, like every other authoritarian institution in USA, is inherently asymmetric. The NSA lizards hear our intimate conversations, but we don't know a thing about NSA lizards. We'd love to vote against NSA, but that isn't an option. (Even protesting them seems a dicey option: how far can the Ft Meade fence snipers shoot?) For some reason some of the lizards have emerged from cover in the guise of a mysteriously never-profitable parallel construction firm, so naturally they're going to receive some of the scrutiny we would otherwise apply to their inaccessible brethren. You have repeated ITT that you object to this, but you haven't given us a reason why. That invites speculation as to personal motivations.
        emteycz 6y ago
        Oh, please, now you're saying I'm one of them? Wake up. I simply want the problem fixed. The actual problem, not something that is not the problem and won't help, because the government will simply pick another contractor. The problem is the system and the government, not businesses, not corporations, and definitely not a specific firm. You know, it's weird that so many so vocal people don't want protests against the actual issue and support senseless activism against a scapegoat. ;-)
        jessaustin 6y ago
        Wake me up! Tell us something we could do to decrease surveillance by USA government personnel. Please don't suggest "voting", though. If the previous 15 elections hadn't already made clear how worthless that is, the current election is sure to do so. Failing that, slight inconveniences for Palantir staff and investors may continue.
        emteycz 6y ago
        I am the last one to suggest voting. I would suggest protesting against the government, and against the system. If more people recognized that that is the problem, we could finally stop voting and get fixing. Sadly, this kind of activism suggests that private sector is the problem, and thus more government is needed.
        jessaustin 6y ago
        USA government has a number of unfortunate qualities. Of course we should oppose these qualities in many different ways (certainly not limited to protest). We're not disagreeing with that. But, we can't draw a bright line between a never-over-several-decades-profitable "company" and the secret agencies who are its only clients and whose personnel is separated from its own by an unseen revolving door. Palantir is not clearly separate from those agencies. Protesting Palantir takes nothing away from effective opposition to abusive government authority. At this level of the thread, we know that you don't like protesting Palantir. Unfortunately you haven't given us any other reason to think such protests are problematic.
  - emteycz 6y ago
    I think I am doing enough, but thank you for the suggestion. I don't think there is anything wrong with discussion,if that's what you were suggesting. Perhaps activists would hear less of stuff like what I say if they protested against the government instead of hopping on the populist anti-business bandwagon. Sadly many activists are trying to portray business in general as bad.

emteycz 6y ago

Yeah, but it tells them wrong story about what the root cause is. That is wrong IMHO. This is not a rogue corporation that has to be stopped, this is a rogue government that has to be stopped.

NationalPark 6y ago
Activists constantly hear people from the sidelines telling them they're protesting the "wrong" way. If you really want to make a difference, stop criticizing and start doing the work you think is more important yourself.
- jessaustin 6y ago
  A great deal of that sideline protest is cynical anyway. One doesn't want to argue the basic point, so instead of doing so one talks about a "better" way of going about it. Some call this "concern trolling".
  - emteycz 6y ago
    Please re-read what I wrote. What I want is to argue the basic point - that surveillance is wrong and the government is overstepping a boundary. None of these can be argued against a corporation that simply sold the government what it asked for.
    - jessaustin 6y ago
      Surveillance in USA, like every other authoritarian institution in USA, is inherently asymmetric. The NSA lizards hear our intimate conversations, but we don't know a thing about NSA lizards. We'd love to vote against NSA, but that isn't an option. (Even protesting them seems a dicey option: how far can the Ft Meade fence snipers shoot?) For some reason some of the lizards have emerged from cover in the guise of a mysteriously never-profitable parallel construction firm, so naturally they're going to receive some of the scrutiny we would otherwise apply to their inaccessible brethren. You have repeated ITT that you object to this, but you haven't given us a reason why. That invites speculation as to personal motivations.
      - emteycz 6y ago
        Oh, please, now you're saying I'm one of them? Wake up. I simply want the problem fixed. The actual problem, not something that is not the problem and won't help, because the government will simply pick another contractor. The problem is the system and the government, not businesses, not corporations, and definitely not a specific firm. You know, it's weird that so many so vocal people don't want protests against the actual issue and support senseless activism against a scapegoat. ;-)
        jessaustin 6y ago
        Wake me up! Tell us something we could do to decrease surveillance by USA government personnel. Please don't suggest "voting", though. If the previous 15 elections hadn't already made clear how worthless that is, the current election is sure to do so. Failing that, slight inconveniences for Palantir staff and investors may continue.
        emteycz 6y ago
        I am the last one to suggest voting. I would suggest protesting against the government, and against the system. If more people recognized that that is the problem, we could finally stop voting and get fixing. Sadly, this kind of activism suggests that private sector is the problem, and thus more government is needed.
        jessaustin 6y ago
        USA government has a number of unfortunate qualities. Of course we should oppose these qualities in many different ways (certainly not limited to protest). We're not disagreeing with that. But, we can't draw a bright line between a never-over-several-decades-profitable "company" and the secret agencies who are its only clients and whose personnel is separated from its own by an unseen revolving door. Palantir is not clearly separate from those agencies. Protesting Palantir takes nothing away from effective opposition to abusive government authority. At this level of the thread, we know that you don't like protesting Palantir. Unfortunately you haven't given us any other reason to think such protests are problematic.
- emteycz 6y ago
  I think I am doing enough, but thank you for the suggestion. I don't think there is anything wrong with discussion,if that's what you were suggesting. Perhaps activists would hear less of stuff like what I say if they protested against the government instead of hopping on the populist anti-business bandwagon. Sadly many activists are trying to portray business in general as bad.