4 ms·

Ok.. I am going to be brave and not going to use a throwaway. I find it perplexing that HN crowd who is usually arguing for a balanced analysis and seeing both

by anu7df 6y ago

Ok.. I am going to be brave and not going to use a throwaway. I find it perplexing that HN crowd who is usually arguing for a balanced analysis and seeing both viewpoints is suddenly behaving as if this data proves some injustice is currently happening in India as well as US (in the context of Indian caste system). To be clear, India has/had a caste system that was extremely oppressive. Currently though, the social aspects aside, economically and crucially educationally, the "lower castes", have an advantage due to a system of reservations - affirmative action on steroids. I am not going to argue one way or the other as to whether the idea or the implementation of such an affirmative action policy is fair or net positive. It probably still is in principle, but in practice the people who seem to benefit from this, in my experience, are very rich "lower caste" families. More things to say here, but I don't want to digress. The law suit in the story has to do with IIT. So let's take that specifically. IIT is extremely competitive to get into. It is even more competitive once you are in. It is common for affirmative action students to not do very well there. Call it a difference grit/talent/smartness whatever. This causes a some of them to disengage from studies altogether. Then it is not a stretch to imagine that some of them may not be very good at their job either. The lawsuit and the accusations of casteism has to be now taken with a huge pinch of salt. To be clear, I don't know if any of the accusations in that lawsuit are true or not. But I do know that every middle class parent (including mine) drills into their kids the idea that you have to work freaking hard at studies to "get some where". Everything about that 90 percent statistic can be explained through economics (already rich with all its advantages) or through desperation (high caste+ poor => no chance except if you work really hard). Of course I knew a few so called "lower caste" people in IIT who got in through the "general category" ie purely on merit. They were just as good as anybody there and are also doing well in the tech scene in US. edit: Added the below sentence. The cynic in me thinks this guy accuser in the lawsuit is trying to hide his incompetence by taking advantage of the BLM and current sentiments.

triceratops 6y ago
> It is common for affirmative action students to not do very well there. Do you have any data at all for this? > Then it is not a stretch to imagine that some of them may not be very good at their job either. It's not right to assume that someone may not be good at their current job because they may (in your mind) have benefited from some "affirmative action" program far in the past (John Doe is 20+ years into his career). Judge people on current performance, not past history. Plenty of average students shine in the real world. > The cynic in me thinks this guy accuser in the lawsuit is trying to hide his incompetence Why don't we let the courts work it out instead of speculating on people's motivations or honesty?
- legolas2412 6y ago
  > It is common for affirmative action students to not do very well there. Do you have any data at all for this? You can find one study here https://www.epw.in/engage/article/Survey-at-an-IIT-Campus-Shows-How-Caste-Affects-Students-Perceptions#:~:text=Students%20in%20the%20general%20caste,STs%20have%20the%20lowest%20GPA.&text=The%20difference%20in%20the%20GPA,significant%20below%20one%20percent%20level https://www.epw.in/engage/article/Survey-at-an-IIT-Campus-Sh.... General category has a higher percentage of attended govt school and less private school than SC/ST. Interesting to see that is not true for OBC.
- anu7df 6y ago
  > It is common for affirmative action students to not do very well there. Do you have any data at all for this? No. Only my observation from when I went to IIT for my undergrad about 2 decades ago. At that time they even used to have remedial classes for students who came in through the reservation system. Again, I would like to emphasize that not all of those students were having difficulties coping with the workload. In fact, it is not uncommon for the general category students to crumble under pressure as well. > Then it is not a stretch to imagine that some of them may not be very good at their job either. It's not right to assume that someone may not be good at their current job because they may (in your mind) have benefited from some "affirmative action" program far in the past (John Doe is 20+ years into his career). Judge people on current performance, not past history. Plenty of average students shine in the real world. Yes, plenty of average students shine in the real world. Nothing you say here contradicts what I wrote above. To rephrase with an example, if GPA was the only criteria for accepting students into a university, and in a class of mostly 4.0 students you admit a few 2.0 students with affirmative action, it is not difficult to see how they would have trouble in class. If they also get demotivated and end up not getting much from that education, some of them may not do so well in work life either.* > The cynic in me thinks this guy accuser in the lawsuit is trying to hide his incompetence Why don't we let the courts work it out instead of speculating on people's motivations or honesty? Agreed. That was uncalled for. But I did preface it with "cynic in me".
  - triceratops 6y ago

by anu7df 6y ago

triceratops 6y ago

> It is common for affirmative action students to not do very well there. Do you have any data at all for this? > Then it is not a stretch to imagine that some of them may not be very good at their job either. It's not right to assume that someone may not be good at their current job because they may (in your mind) have benefited from some "affirmative action" program far in the past (John Doe is 20+ years into his career). Judge people on current performance, not past history. Plenty of average students shine in the real world. > The cynic in me thinks this guy accuser in the lawsuit is trying to hide his incompetence Why don't we let the courts work it out instead of speculating on people's motivations or honesty?

legolas2412 6y ago
> It is common for affirmative action students to not do very well there. Do you have any data at all for this? You can find one study here https://www.epw.in/engage/article/Survey-at-an-IIT-Campus-Shows-How-Caste-Affects-Students-Perceptions#:~:text=Students%20in%20the%20general%20caste,STs%20have%20the%20lowest%20GPA.&text=The%20difference%20in%20the%20GPA,significant%20below%20one%20percent%20level https://www.epw.in/engage/article/Survey-at-an-IIT-Campus-Sh.... General category has a higher percentage of attended govt school and less private school than SC/ST. Interesting to see that is not true for OBC.
anu7df 6y ago
> It is common for affirmative action students to not do very well there. Do you have any data at all for this? No. Only my observation from when I went to IIT for my undergrad about 2 decades ago. At that time they even used to have remedial classes for students who came in through the reservation system. Again, I would like to emphasize that not all of those students were having difficulties coping with the workload. In fact, it is not uncommon for the general category students to crumble under pressure as well. > Then it is not a stretch to imagine that some of them may not be very good at their job either. It's not right to assume that someone may not be good at their current job because they may (in your mind) have benefited from some "affirmative action" program far in the past (John Doe is 20+ years into his career). Judge people on current performance, not past history. Plenty of average students shine in the real world. Yes, plenty of average students shine in the real world. Nothing you say here contradicts what I wrote above. To rephrase with an example, if GPA was the only criteria for accepting students into a university, and in a class of mostly 4.0 students you admit a few 2.0 students with affirmative action, it is not difficult to see how they would have trouble in class. If they also get demotivated and end up not getting much from that education, some of them may not do so well in work life either.* > The cynic in me thinks this guy accuser in the lawsuit is trying to hide his incompetence Why don't we let the courts work it out instead of speculating on people's motivations or honesty? Agreed. That was uncalled for. But I did preface it with "cynic in me".
- triceratops 6y ago