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Send them this article: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html Then, send it to yo

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rbanffy 16y ago
There are legitimate reasons for a full rewrite. If, for instance, you can change the platform and do the rewrite significantly faster than the original technology and implement changes faster, then the rewrite may be the may to go. Imagine you have an app built on J2EE, with lots of logic on templates and no tests whatsoever. It's huge and maintaining it takes a huge effort. Every bug takes weeks to fix and generates wrong data that has to be corrected manually. Imagine you can write an equivalent app in Ruby on Rails in two weeks, with tests. Which way would you go?
- jtheory 16y ago
  Your two "imagine" clauses are incompatible, though. "Imagine you can write an equivalent app in Ruby on Rails in two weeks, with tests." You've already said that the existing app has "lots of logic" and is huge. Every bug takes weeks to fix, which means the "lots of logic" is seriously twisted up and not easy to decipher. If that's the case -- figuring out the logic to fix one bug takes weeks, then it's inconceivable that you'll untangle all of the logic in two weeks. That's before you write a single line of Ruby -- if you want an "equivalent" app, that means you have to know what the current one does, first. This is the usually-fatal flaw in the "rewrite" argument. The existing app needs to be rewritten because no one can understand it anymore (is is both poorly-written and very large/complex). But because no one can understand it anymore, it will be extremely difficult to rewrite, unless you work as if you were creating a new, similar application. This is also why refactoring works. You cut off a bit of the existing app, figure out just that bit, write tests for it, and then replace just that bit with new code. You can even refactor an app into a completely different language, actually -- you have two apps running parallel, and gradually move over bits of functionality from one to the other. In the process you'll need to gradually enforce order (and separation of concerns...) on the original app, but you need to do that either way.
  - rbanffy 16y ago
    No, they aren't incompatible. First, a huge Java app is about 3 to 10 times smaller (in LoC) when ported to Ruby or Python. Second, there is a lot of boilerplate code and configuration in a typical Java app. Not nearly that much with either Rails or Django. And third, basic CRUD functionality, something that has tons of Java boilerplate associated with it, is usually very simple with Rails (or Django). As for the tangled logic, it's the way many apps evolve. They are designed at their start and then refactored and patched into their current form. The current app wasn't designed anymore - it evolved - and, in order to properly maintain it, you'll have to understand how and why its evolution took place. One more point - in order to reimplement it on top of a more modern framework, you don't need to understand thoroughly what your mutated-beyond-recognition Java app does - you only need to know what it should do. The fatal flaw you point out may not exist. If you don't know what the app should be doing, then I have to agree - you are doomed from the start. Refactoring will give you some time, as it reverses the mutations back into a designed state - and improve things a bit, but it will not be able to bring the orders-of-magnitude improvements you see when migrating from an old and obsolete (but still widely used) infrastructure, to a more modern one. That's when a rewrite would be warranted.
    - jtheory 16y ago
      It sounds like you're referring to two different large Java projects, though. If you can port it by just stripping out the boilerplate -- if it's at heart just a CRUD UI with 7 frameworks and "enterprise best practices" mixed in -- then this is not the twisted and unmaintainable monster you're talking about afterwards. It's less fun, but I've worked on lots of sprawling & unwieldy Java apps implementing simple requirements, and it's not hard (it's also not easy to justify a rewrite, unfortunately). Bugfixes don't take weeks (or even days), particularly not once you know your way around a bit. The app with the twisted logic (where bugs take weeks to fix, that has mutated over years and years of hacked-in change requests and quirky tweaks often for specific users' needs) is the one that screams for rewriting, but this is also the app where no-one knows exactly what it does anymore. And if you don't know what it does, I have no idea how you could claim to know what it should do. Many of the odd features are there for customers who aren't even customers anymore, but no one knows. Even the code doesn't always help much -- I've seen processing where it fails in the mid-method every time for some foolish reason (and logs an error then returns), but the code after the failure is actually direly broken and must never be executed. I've tried (failed, actually) rewriting one of these as well as doing lots of refactoring on these kinds of projects. With the first kind of app, you still understand it, so bugs can be fixed, new features are possible, and there's no clear case to rewrite it. With the second kind of app, you can either do what I mentioned above (and maybe you're talking about this, more than a rewrite?) -- start talking with/watching users, take a lot of notes, and build a new similar application all the way through, which will necessarily start off missing much of the functionality of the existing one. Refactoring isn't about giving you time; it's about paying off technical debt and forcing the codebase back into a state where you can do progressively larger refactorings. This includes modularizing the existing app so that you can replace it piecemeal. New pieces do not need to operate within the old framework. It's quite possible (and sometimes desirable) to refactor the original codebase completely out of existence.

Send them this article: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html Then, send it to yourself.

rbanffy 16y ago

There are legitimate reasons for a full rewrite. If, for instance, you can change the platform and do the rewrite significantly faster than the original technology and implement changes faster, then the rewrite may be the may to go. Imagine you have an app built on J2EE, with lots of logic on templates and no tests whatsoever. It's huge and maintaining it takes a huge effort. Every bug takes weeks to fix and generates wrong data that has to be corrected manually. Imagine you can write an equivalent app in Ruby on Rails in two weeks, with tests. Which way would you go?

jtheory 16y ago
Your two "imagine" clauses are incompatible, though. "Imagine you can write an equivalent app in Ruby on Rails in two weeks, with tests." You've already said that the existing app has "lots of logic" and is huge. Every bug takes weeks to fix, which means the "lots of logic" is seriously twisted up and not easy to decipher. If that's the case -- figuring out the logic to fix one bug takes weeks, then it's inconceivable that you'll untangle all of the logic in two weeks. That's before you write a single line of Ruby -- if you want an "equivalent" app, that means you have to know what the current one does, first. This is the usually-fatal flaw in the "rewrite" argument. The existing app needs to be rewritten because no one can understand it anymore (is is both poorly-written and very large/complex). But because no one can understand it anymore, it will be extremely difficult to rewrite, unless you work as if you were creating a new, similar application. This is also why refactoring works. You cut off a bit of the existing app, figure out just that bit, write tests for it, and then replace just that bit with new code. You can even refactor an app into a completely different language, actually -- you have two apps running parallel, and gradually move over bits of functionality from one to the other. In the process you'll need to gradually enforce order (and separation of concerns...) on the original app, but you need to do that either way.
- rbanffy 16y ago
  No, they aren't incompatible. First, a huge Java app is about 3 to 10 times smaller (in LoC) when ported to Ruby or Python. Second, there is a lot of boilerplate code and configuration in a typical Java app. Not nearly that much with either Rails or Django. And third, basic CRUD functionality, something that has tons of Java boilerplate associated with it, is usually very simple with Rails (or Django). As for the tangled logic, it's the way many apps evolve. They are designed at their start and then refactored and patched into their current form. The current app wasn't designed anymore - it evolved - and, in order to properly maintain it, you'll have to understand how and why its evolution took place. One more point - in order to reimplement it on top of a more modern framework, you don't need to understand thoroughly what your mutated-beyond-recognition Java app does - you only need to know what it should do. The fatal flaw you point out may not exist. If you don't know what the app should be doing, then I have to agree - you are doomed from the start. Refactoring will give you some time, as it reverses the mutations back into a designed state - and improve things a bit, but it will not be able to bring the orders-of-magnitude improvements you see when migrating from an old and obsolete (but still widely used) infrastructure, to a more modern one. That's when a rewrite would be warranted.
  - jtheory 16y ago
    It sounds like you're referring to two different large Java projects, though. If you can port it by just stripping out the boilerplate -- if it's at heart just a CRUD UI with 7 frameworks and "enterprise best practices" mixed in -- then this is not the twisted and unmaintainable monster you're talking about afterwards. It's less fun, but I've worked on lots of sprawling & unwieldy Java apps implementing simple requirements, and it's not hard (it's also not easy to justify a rewrite, unfortunately). Bugfixes don't take weeks (or even days), particularly not once you know your way around a bit. The app with the twisted logic (where bugs take weeks to fix, that has mutated over years and years of hacked-in change requests and quirky tweaks often for specific users' needs) is the one that screams for rewriting, but this is also the app where no-one knows exactly what it does anymore. And if you don't know what it does, I have no idea how you could claim to know what it should do. Many of the odd features are there for customers who aren't even customers anymore, but no one knows. Even the code doesn't always help much -- I've seen processing where it fails in the mid-method every time for some foolish reason (and logs an error then returns), but the code after the failure is actually direly broken and must never be executed. I've tried (failed, actually) rewriting one of these as well as doing lots of refactoring on these kinds of projects. With the first kind of app, you still understand it, so bugs can be fixed, new features are possible, and there's no clear case to rewrite it. With the second kind of app, you can either do what I mentioned above (and maybe you're talking about this, more than a rewrite?) -- start talking with/watching users, take a lot of notes, and build a new similar application all the way through, which will necessarily start off missing much of the functionality of the existing one. Refactoring isn't about giving you time; it's about paying off technical debt and forcing the codebase back into a state where you can do progressively larger refactorings. This includes modularizing the existing app so that you can replace it piecemeal. New pieces do not need to operate within the old framework. It's quite possible (and sometimes desirable) to refactor the original codebase completely out of existence.